Lets all be honest the title sums up what happened yestersday perfectly. I went yesterday actually expecting us to get beat by such a margin and as it happened that feeling was made into reality, in honesty I thought the scoreline flattered us!!



I really don't mind us losing, it happens. But what I can't accept is a performance like what Saints put out against Wigan. Wigan are a good side, light years ahead of us at the moment but we just can't be as bad as we were made to look on Sunday. We were made to look amateurish at times with the contrast in quality between the two sides. The speed, skill and sheer will to win was so obvious to see. We look like a mid table side at the moment with the occassional standout performance and the unfortunate thing is I can't see that changing with the personel we currently have in the side.

Wellens - I was critical of Wellens early in the season for lack of pace but what worried me more was his missed tackle on Hock which led to his try. Would Hock have scored that try 3-4 years ago? No he wouldn't because Wellens wouldn't have missed the tackle. Hock ran stright at him more or less and went straight through him. I really hope it's his last year, he doesn't deserve to be in this situation for everything he has done for this club. The guy is a legend and I don't want his reputation to be tarnished by going on longer than he should.

Lomax - I really do feel sorry for this kid. I like him in the halves (seems like I'm on my own in thinking this) but I see him more of a tradional 6, a runner, support player with the skill to put people through gaps. I don't get this talk of him being a 9 or 1 because he has never played there to warrant that argument. He has played on the wing and done a resonable job in taking the high ball and he has pretty good pace, but he has never really struck me as a full back. It's just my opinion but he wasn't voted the best young player in Super League last year in the halves for no reason. He just needs help from a good 7 who can organise and take the majority of the tactical play away from him and let him play with freedom and instinct. At the moment he is doing everything on the field for the side, with no help from Hohaia and it's way to much, so as a result his performances are slightly slipping. If we do get an organiser in the halves to help him watch him flourish.

The pack - are they just scared of Wigan? No other side is as aggreesive as them in Super League. They run hard and hit harder, they dominated Saints' pack and when it gets a bit violent they exert this even further by winning the fight - Mossop saw to that!!! From minute one yesterday Saints were over powered in every collison, they had no answer and at times it felt like Saints knew this. We need aggreesive players to match Wigan because if we lose the middle of the field it has a knock on effect as we then lose Roby. When we have played Wigan this season has anyone noticed James Roby? I haven't. He has no space to work because his pack is getting beaten up. We won't beat Wigan again until this changes.

I was going to say something on Lance Hohaia but what's the point???? I will say one thing though for the future. If he does get moved positions I hope he doesn't get used at 9 because from what I see of him at acting half, his distribution is just as bad as it is in open field. Watch him when he is filling in at times. The ball gets played, he picks it up, starts to stand up right, looks at who he is passing to, then pauses and then releases the ball - he has never passed off the floor once!!

Fans - I sometimes despair with some of our fans at times. I do actually wonder sometimes if they know the rules or have any rugby knowledge. Everyone pays their money and are more than entitled to their opinion but people just scream at everything, thinking that because the opposition get a penalty then it surely must be a penalty for Saints next. We all make mistakes at times and the refferees are actually human and can't see everything and will miss things, it's part and parcel of sport. Chris Flannery could give away one of his usual obvious penalties and people scream at the ref - why not scream at Chris Flannery? I had a bloke near me yesterday - a saints fan. Screaming and foaming at the mouth at Fancis Meli for not catching a Gary Wheeler pass that was so far forward I had more chance of catching it from behind the sticks!!!!! It's just things like this that do my head in.



I'm down hearted as a Saints fan at the moment. I've missed two games all season and I'll be there at the weekend hoping for a reaction from the performance at the weekend, if not for us - the fans but for the players themselves. They need to dust themselves down, start again and realise that they are professional players for a great club and performances like that are just not acceptable.

Should be a Cracker as FC will want to bound back from the KR game.

Well said that guy!!

Lomax actually made his debut at fullback against Wakefield at belle view. He had a decent game too considering his age.

I, however, fully agree with you that he is a stand-off. That has been his position since under 7's at Orrell St, James. Too many people on here say we need a stand-off. Me? I say we have one. It's a scrum half we need.

I knew there was a good chance that he had played there once. What I meant was that he hasn't played there on anything like a consistent basis to warrant being ear marked for full back.

Fair point and I agree. I would rather see Lomax at stand-off with an organising scrum half. Lomax running wide of the ruck could be devastating with a good scrum half inside him. Twice the stand-off that Gaskell is IMO. Cue the we love Gaskell brigade.

You say that Lomax is twice the stand off Gaskell is but I've always thought that Gaskell is a traditional 7. I've always thought that they were the wrong way round. It's just a gut instinct of mine when I watch them play - Gaskell could do a job at 7 in my opinion.

Actually never thought of that. My main area of concern with regard to Gaskell is his poor decision making at the line of attack. He has a tendency to take the wrong option on far too many occasions for my liking. A move to scrum half would tie him to a much more rigid game plan and also give Lomax the extra width to run at the defence. Also the one positive area of Gaskells game, his kicking, could be used to more positive effect around the ruck.

Give it a try. It can't be any worse than Hohaia at stand-off.

Me too. In fact I thought Gaskell was a scrum half but I was corrected on here.

He sometimes goes for the dummy runner rather than passes behind when approaching the line but other than that he probably takes a wrong option about as often as most players.

Give over. Gaskell's decision-making is a million miles ahead of anyone else's at the club. Yes, he's made mistakes. But all kids make mistakes. It's impossible not to make them if you're lacking experience.

Let's recall for a moment that Gaskell's distribution and kicking played a crucial role in us getting to the GF. Let's also recall that prior to the start of last season [ihe had no experience whatsoever[/i. The plan was to introduce him gradually to the first team (like Lomax and Wheeler). I doubt the club had any intention to give him more than half a dozen games until the Eastmond debacle dropped on us. Given our (unexpected) success I'd say his performances bordered upon the miraculous. Especially when you recall that it took Lomax TWO SEASONS (at least) to achieve a sufficient level of performance and consistency to command a regular first team shirt.

Spot on.

Agreed. I think we have all seen enough of Lance to see he is never ever going to do it as SO. Time to put him on the bench and bring back the Lomasgaskell partnership again.
Lance can come on and give wello or robes a break or even move robes to 13 for 10 mins and let Lancie boy play at 9.............tbh...........I'm not sure I care what the "coach" tries but anything will be better than what happened on Sunday.

Oh dear. How expectations have dropped!



The fact that so many defend him is laughable.

I can't make a case for Hohaia to be in the side at the moment let alone at such a pivotable position at 9, even if it's for 10 minutes!! You can lose a game in 10 minutes!! It's like we are trying to find positions for him in the side. He doesn't warrant a starting place on current form so shouldn't be in the side. I understand people saying that Roby needs to be rested, but can we actually afford to take him away from 9 or even off the field? To me that just makes us weaker, we need our best player on the field.

I'm afraid it's YOU who looks like the fool here. Gaskell is a kid. A kid who last season was thrust into the position of key decision-maker and tactical kicker despite the fact that he had no experience of first team football whatsoever and is still perhaps eighteen months away from being physically mature. Despite all this he was instrumental in getting us to the GF.

What kind of fan are you to demand we shouldn't "defend" any kid thrown into such an unenviable position? What kind of fan are you to think inexperienced boys are capable of matching the playing standards of grown men in the first team and if they aren't they should be tossed aside, ridiculed etc.? Sounds to me like you have a pretty twisted appreciation of what it means to be a supporter. Or you're a simpleton.

Who's had a better debut season in such a key position with such little support?

Fans:
They do my head in a lot of the time too.
Its embarassing but every RL team has a couple of thousand morons supporting them. Apart from London who only have about 500 fans all together.

I can't imagine what it must be like at a football match.

Or the fact that so many defend him shows that you are making attacks with no basis for those attacks. No one would have to defend him if he was not being attacked. The fact that people call into question his game and assess him as though he was Shaun Edwards or Sean Long at their peak, just shows how skewed some peoples view points are.

Take a look at other halves in the league in their first year and tell me how much better they were. Take Leon Pryce in his first year at Saints, an experienced player but new to first grade halfback play. His contribution was average at best, but this was covered by the skills of others around him.

Brough in his first few years was very hit and miss yet he is now the toast of some.

I've no idea if Gaskell will prove us all right or wrong, but the fact that the league leaders are showing an interest to replace their leaving halves just shows the quality that the best see in him. We've shipped out more halves from Saints in recent years than I can recall and at this rate every team in SL will have a Saints, half bar Saints.

Long, Ellis, Smith, Eastmond, now Gaskell.

You can ball and shout as much as you want saying the players need to do better if there not good enough there not good enough and it will get worse even when brown comes in

That début season had such low expectations put on it that average performances seemed good.



Any replacement coming in and doing an average job under those circumstances would look good. Also I think you place too much emphasis on his contribution to the point where you devalue the other players who took part in those games.The whole season was a backs to the wall grind of a season where the remaining fit senior players had to dig deep and bring the younger players through.

Gaskells true level was shown at the start of this season. As soon as fans expected performances he couldn't deliver.If he were the half back you all say he is we wouldn't have had such a bad start given that the first 6 games looked straightforward on paper. Also our revival began with his omission and the only team to beat us in that time is the Pies. Now I would not defend Hohaia for 1 second but Lomax started playing better when he was moved to half back.

Lee Gaskell may one day make a decent super league player but it won't be at Stand-Off.

Good post but you have not mentioned Rush's and KFC's role in this! Let us also not forget that you were on a good run until this match - tinkering is the key not wholesale changes.

It depends how you define "a good run". We were winning games but I think it was plainly obvious to the majority of Saints fans that if we came up against a quality side, like we did at the weekend then we would struggle. Yes we beat Leeds on the Monday, but I was one of the few that came away from the game pleased with the win but also dreading playing Wigan. We just can't reach that level at the moment.

You're correct tinkering with the squad is what is needed. It's not like we have a squad of 40 players and can change the whole team so we are limited with the changes we can make. Personally I'd only change 3 - 4 players to see what happens - it can't be any worse than the weekend. I'll do a side that I would like to see play Hull.

1. Wellens -
2. Gardner -
3. Wheeler - been in poor form since he came back from injury but it's either him or Shenton.
4. Jones - He has been "having a breather" in the U20's the last few weeks and hasn't been dropped. Time for him to come back into the side.
5. Makinson - if fit
6. Lomax
7. Gaskell - If only for his kicking in general play as without him our kicking game is shocking
8. Perry
9. Roby
10. Laffranchi
11. Soliola
12. Flanagan - if fit
13. Wilkin

14. Dixon
15 LMS
16. Clough
17. Puletua

People are obviously going to have different opinions but I think that side should be good enough to get the 2 points against Hull. It looks more balanced and moves the players who are in poor form away from the side. But like I said it's all completely objective.

In regards to the roles played by Cunningham and Mike Rush over the last couple of months. I think that they have both been forced into the roles they currently have at the club, not by management but by beliving that it was the best thing for the club at the time. They obviously love the club and have taken it on themselves to make the best out of a messy situation. With Royce going so early in the season they had no time to prepare themselves for the challenges that lay ahead, so they are basically having to learn on the spot and I think in the circumstances they have done really well. I compare their situation to that of Roy Hodgson the England football manager in Euro 2012. It's a free tournament for him as it's a free season for KC and Mike Rush - they aren't expected to create miracles they are being asked to steady the ship temporarily before future plans become reality. Us fans know this or at least I hope they do.

Can't think of one then?

My point is that I don't think he had a great debut season and the fact he looked ok was because of the low expectations at the club at the time. A lot of other players contributed to last seasons exceptional end result, yet you seem to believe that Gaskell was really the only player who contributed. That is a massive disservice to all the other juniors who played last season. Bottom line is that Gaskell will never make a stand-off with enough quality to be at Saints for years. He is a modern day Mark Bailey, OK untill someone better comes along.

P.S. I think Jamie Foster and Jonny Lomax both had better debut seasons than Gaskell. If you want me to go back further I will have to put my thinking cap on because my memory ain't what it was. Cue the jokes.

I can see the logic here as there are wholesale changes that could be made, but making changes across the board could lead to some tragic reults against lesser sides than wigan. This keeps our core stable whilst offering some key attacking changes. other would go further and move lomax, wellens, meli, wilkin but that would cause so much disruption that it would be impossible to see improvements in any one area.

That's why i've not minded too much wheeler and lance getting an extended run, you can't see true form from a few minutes of a match, but a run of 10 matches will give you a better idea of what a player brings to a team across easy games, hard games as a team member and with individual actions.