Ok. It's a joke. But I'm interested to hear why people think Royce should go for admittedly poor performance and perceived recruitment mistakes when McManus has been blundering in the transfer market for years. If anyone is to blame for the current state of the squad it's him.

Meli should never have been kept. Gardner should never have been kept. Flannery should never have been kept. The Eastmond saga was allowed to drag on to the start of last season which is the primary reason we have no scrum half now. The decision to rely almost completely on the academy [ithree years[/i before any of its current products had reached physical maturity etc.

Royce has only been here for a couple of seasons. McManus has been making mistakes for much longer.

did he make these choices or did thbe coaches? Certainly Eamonn has had other things to concentrate on and so will be given a season or so before real questions will be asked

That's the thing though, these mistakes will probably take Saints the best part of ten years to recover from. I have said for years that the recruitment, retention and youth development have been neglected for years and we are going to suffer because of that now.

I have asked the question tons of times as to who is in charge of such matters at Saints but got no answer. If it is McManus then yes he's done a very poor job, but that is what will happen when you completely ignore the whole rugby side of the operation.

It's quite a serious issue as well because a lot of the potential revenue gains from the stadium will be lost through fans not turning up in the numbers they would have done had we had a competitive side. If we keep up this level of performance throughout the season I wouldn't want to be in charge of selling season ticket renewals for next season. The club has to act now and show the kind of commitment and ambition to win that made us champions in 1996 and laid the foundations find for the decade of success that followed. A new coaching structure from top to bottom would freshen things up and then we need to focus on recruitment and showing no sentimentality with retentions as well. They have to set the goal of replacing each outgoing player with a better player and also signing players for positions we require them and not just because they are available.

It's inconceivable that McManus had no input. From what I've seen and heard of other football and rugby clubs the decision is at least a 50/50 split between chairman and the coaching team. Which is as it should be given it's as much a business decision as anything else. And McManus was CERTAINLY behind the club's decision to cut away the more established pros and run with the academy. An academy that only developed into physically mature adults (barring Gaskell and a couple of others who are from a later generation) LAST SEASON (three years after the the choice was made).

McManus signed Potter. McManus signed Royce. I didn't have a problem with the former because he did have a good record with Catalans but the decision to go with Royce was highly suspect. Aside from his reputation for working with kids his coaching experience at the top level was questionable to say the least.

I've always wondered why so many players have recently chosen to back out of deals at Saints [iat the last minute[/i. Sure, it's happened before. But I don't recall it ever happening so often. Of course, McManus may not be responsible. But given that we certainly needed at least some of those players I wonder whether we could have done more.

We have two very separate issues here, and our transfer policy has very little to do with our lack of form and bewildering tactics.

If you ignore the recent form and league table, and then compare the bradford team with the saints team you would expect Saints to win 9 times out of 10. We have a good squad but we are not playing anywhere near our potential.

We have a squad that is good enough to compete for both the trophies, but we are punching well below our weight.

This is nonsense. If you don't have a scrum half and you don't have a leader on the pitch it's very difficult to organise a cohesive attacking strategy on the pitch. And the lack of both is directly attributable to our transfer policy.



I too think we have a good squad. But we have no one on the pitch capable of analysing the defence and calling attacking plays to exploit clear weaknesses. Gaskell may fulfil that role in the future but right now he's too inexperienced to do it effectively for any sustained period. All coaches allow for creative freedom on the pitch. It would be madness not to because opponents may change their gameplan to suit and once the team has crossed the whitewash it is effectively beyond influence of the coach. We don't used highly-scripted playbooks like those found in the NFL (although even NFL quaterbacks have creative latitude). Unfortunately, because we have no scrum half, no tactical brain, we are forced to keep repeating plan A. And it's killing us.

This is ridiculous.

Saints have made 5 grand finals on the trot.

The much maligned youngsters and coach you have now got you to the grand final last year.

Yet one losing run and suddenly theres been terrible problems for years at the club. Massive knee jark reaction.

If you beat leeds next week suddenly everythying will be the dogs bollox again.

It's not just that we've not won for 5 games - it's the way the team is playing. That people are analysing how exactly we came to this point isn't knee-jerk... in fact it's the opposite.

If we squeak a win against Leeds next week, it how I'll react is seeing whether it'd been by suffocating them in a low-scoring arm-wrestle or by out-attacking them. If the former, then the inherent problems remain.

Of course we would have done better if we had recruited better. We probably also would have won yesterdays match if Roby had of been playing. However are we really playing to our full potential?

We are not even close.

Our squad has its limits, but we are a world away from hitting them at the moment. We aren't 9th purely because of an inexperienced half back pairing, or having Lomax at 7. Likewise if we had another scrum half, we wouldn't suddenly be using more varied patterns of attack, and our runners wouldn't suddenly be hitting al sorts of different lines. They are doing what they are coached to do.

I do think are recruitment has also let us down, but I am currently more frustrated out how we are under-performing. You look at the squad, and it is very frustrating that we are not playing better. We are very capable of playing much better.

We have two problems. One is our recruitment has not been the best, and our squad is weaker. The other problem is we are under-performing. The first problem reduces are chances of winning trophies, but still allows us to be very competitive. The latter means we are 9th.

Excuse me. We have made it to SIX Grand Finals on the trot. We won the first one. A second win has now been beyond three different coaches.

he supports man utd get shut.

I don't think our recruitment has been bad. We have gone in for big name, big money aussies less than Wigan, Hull, Warrington with usually better results.

Talent - playing AND coaching - is hard to come by. We took Gleeson and Wilkin from lower clubs and it paid off. It might yet do with LMS, it might not.

We've turned local academy talent (Graham, Eastmond, Roby) into world class players and turned others into top-flight professionals.

We've got to face the fact that other clubs have caught us up in many areas.

Er, it may be that the other clubs offered more money AND have recent silverware on the table. Both those factors have enabled Saints in the past to attract big name players to our team. We don't have either to offer at present and so it is unlikely in a foot race against Leeds, Wigan and Wire (the big spenders) that we are going to win.

Remember, two of our players came to Saints because Royce Simmons was our coach. They stated that clearly in their acceptance speeches. I rather think they wouldn't do that if they believed him to be a crap coach. That so many people on here presently do is not because he is but because people are seeking a reason for our present predicament and it is easy to blame the coach. However, the players have to take responsibility for what we have been watching this season. They give away penalties; they don't find touch with kicks; they don't catch kick offs; they miss tackles; they get sin binned; they panic; not one of them is prepared to lead on the field. Royce doesn't coach any of that into their game.

Our senior players need to man up. Only Wello did so against Bradford and he made a real difference. Had our other senior players done so we might have won regardless of the errors of our inexperienced players. In fact, those errors might never have occurred as within the more positive atmosphere of the senior players doing their jobs properly and with enthusiasm, they may have been more confident and so not fallen victim to trying too hard and getting it wrong.

As for McManus ... I would love him to walk up to the senior players and kick their backsides. And I include LMS in that group because he's been playing utter rubbish this season so far but has enough experience to be considered among the senior group.

McManus is a great business man and what he has done for our club in terms of its financial survival, not to mention the wonderful new stadium, means I'm not going to criticise his recruitment policy. He had to make a decision: the stadium or the players. We are not a rich enough club to finance both. The players had to go on hold for the sake of the stadium but even so, this group of players is clearly better than the results show. I say clearly because (a) last year they got to a GF, and (b) we are losing by such small margins, usually as a result of stupid errors (like Puletua dropping the ball with the tryline begging).

This might be relevant if it weren't for two facts - 1) Warrington had no silverware to speak of (what's more, they had no [inearly success[/i to speak of) when they began their policy of recruiting better players. and 2) they can't spend over the cap, which McManus has repeatedly stated we are spending up to.

I could drive coach and horses through the salary cap if I was a wealthy club owner.

I suspect McManus might just be too smart to engage in that arms race. Who knows about some others though?

McManus has had to do battle on all fronts and has probably got his priorities right long term. Obviously the new stadium means he's had to take his eye off the ball, he believes in the youth development which created a "false dawn" bringing in the youth type of player in during the injury ravaged season.
It all means we have yet another transition season, now that priority 1 is out of the way he can re focus on the right players in the medium term. The only problem is that some of the contract lengths are too much for certain present individuals, which means there is no short term fix.

Whilst the genesis of our troubles can be traced back to the decision to rely on kids two/three years before they were physically mature the nail in the coffin was allowing the Eastmond saga to drag on six-to-eight months longer than it should.

We should NEVER have been in a position where we were starting last season without knowing whether Eastmond would stay. McManus should have set an absolute deadline at the mid-point of the season before (sign or leave). That way we had time to look for a replacement scrum half. Even if it were only a short-term solution.

Unfortunately, the mistake was complicated by Lomax who admittedly did ok and convinced us we needed no such replacement. What we [ididn't realise[/i is part of his success against other teams can be attributable to unfamiliarity rather than his inherent ability as a scrum half. Teams failed to pick him up precisely because they had no history on which to base a defensive strategy. After a season they had all the data they needed and now he's finding himself shut down and lacking the creative ability to think out of the box.

McManus - very shrewd, lots of trophies, built us a new stadium.

Simmons - a career assistant coach with a history of failure as a head coach who has taken us on our worst streak since the 80s and playing some of the most dour rugby I've ever seen from a Saints side. I'm out of my seat when I see us offload these days, as I know I might not see another for a month.

Hmmmm, tough choice.

McManus has probably made mistakes in recruitment, like all chairmen do from time to time over the course of a decade plus. But let's not pretend the squad is being coached and used to its optimum and our problems are down to playing personnel alone, it clearly isn't the case.

I loved Royce's latest genius approach - wait until we look like we might be building some momentum, then replace one of the halves with Royce's incredible "back on the bench" (a ploy so ingenious its sheer brilliance is yet to be appreciated by the likes of Smith, Maguire, Brown etc), this time an under 20's full back. That went really well and will have done Ashe the world of good.

Saints have some very rich men on the board though.

I had really high hopes for this season. Even though we'd lost Jammer I was impressed by the signing of Laffranchi and Hohaia, which coupled with the promising kids we blooded last season, promised much.

To say it has been a nightmare season so far wouldn't be an understatement for me. As mentioned in numerous other posts and topics, the club looks to be in totaly and utter disarray on a coaching and playing level. For me, the buck stops with the coach.

Where we once was solid and well drilled we are now all over the place and confusion reigns. There is a massive lack of confidence running through the squad, as wide as Perry's gut, and yet we are still constantly chopping and changing the team week in week out.

I was willing to give Simmons the time to sort it out but it doesn't look - on the surface at least - that anything is changing. Players look confused and devoid of any kind of form or confidence.

As for McManus, everything he has done for this club far outweighs the Simmons situation. We don't have a god given right to win everything every season, and Chairmen will make mistakes with recruitment just like anyone else.

At the end of the day, if it wasn't for Big Mac, we wouldn't be having this debate now.

We wouldn't be here.

This ^^^

But I really don't think Royce can take us any further and would like to see it sorted sooner rather than later, in saying that, we are only 5 points off second spot.

That's a mistake in reasoning. The skills required to build a stadium and build a successful team are not a carbon copy of each other. And trophies have been somewhat thin on the ground recently.



Actually, it IS a tough choice. No matter how much you try to minimise Royce's abilities they are the very same that got us to a Grand Final.

What you fail to explain is if McManus is so shrewd and Royce was so obviously flawed - WHY did McManus hire him?

If we are going to level the finger of blame I'd say it falls equally upon the heads of McManus, Potter, Simmons and probably Anderson.

I'm not saying Royce WAS obviously flawed, I'm saying that it is becoming increasingly clear that he is NOW. McManus hired the Oz assistant coach, unfortunately for McManus the Oz assistant coach now appears to be a bit of a mug.

Reardless of issues with roster (and I'm certainly not saying the roster is perfect), we look very badly coached and Royce has no idea what his best team is.

There are a multitude of signs that Royce is not the man for the job, whereas I would say EM has proved to be a pretty good leader over his tenure and has a lot of results on and off the pitch over a period of time to back that up.

McManus is in overall charge no doubt, but there is a huge difference between being shareholder and the store manager.

I was a shareholder of Barclays for a time, but would not have a clue how to run a world wide banking organisation.

Mamanus will have more of a clue, but in the end it's the coaches job to say he wants player abc and McManus' job to say well we can afford A and B or A and C but not all three. If the money man was picking the players that would be a worry as thats down to people who are coaches and can see where the team needs to be progressed. Same for hiring youth, the club may want youth but if the coach does not feel they make the grade then he should not hire them, but of course and this is the crux. The RFL demands 8 of the squad to be club youth.

Wellens / Foster / Makinson / Gaskell / Lomax / Roby / Clough / Dixon.


Which of these due you feel should be dropped for other club developed players, because the concentration on youth is not an option, we can't hire 20 NRL players and neither should we.

You said [i"...a career assistant coach with a history of failure as a head coach"[/i. Now unless you count the last five or six games as proof positive of failure (which is nonsensical as even good coaches can have bad runs and we could very easily have won at least three of those games) you are claiming he was a failure BEFORE he arrived and therefore unqualified for a job at Saints.

So, I'll ask again: If McManus is so shrewd - WHY did he hire him?

I really don't understand why McManus is so often give a free pass when it comes to results on the field. I have always given enormous credit to him for securing the stadium. But that's an entirely separate issue. The stadium does not carry a ball. The stadium does not kick goals. The stadium does not score tries.

Going back to the completely baseless decision to give Meli his first extension (at the very least) I think there is ample evidence that suggests he is not a very good judge of players. Couple this with his repeated claim that we are spending up to the cap. If we were - and I have no reason to doubt him without other evidence - we have been getting royally ripped off (especially as half our squad was made up of kids!). Who is to blame for that?