I say [url=http://photos-a.ak.fbcdn.net/photos-ak-snc1/v2619/242/76/568536040/n568536040_2775536_6725950.jpgthis[/url to your team in decline comments

It's clear that we are though. The Challenge cup game is where we can judge. If, as I expect, they beat us as comfortably as we did them last night it would appear our chances of silverwear over the next few seasons are slight.

But surely as was said last year the CC in a non-entity cup, worth nothing

You can bet your bottom dollar the Challenge Cup would go up in importance suddenly should Saints be knocked out in a couple of weeks. Leeds "Win when it matters" they will tell us.

Leeds last season commented the Challenge Cup is the one they wanted that year. They got beat and said the Challege Cup is of no importance, we want the superleague title.

I'm not sure that the outcome of a one off game will tell us whether we are in decline, or not. Leeds are probably the strongest team in the comp, losing to them on their own patch won't be that much of a disgrace.

I think after fifteen games, or so, will be the time we'll be able to judge more clearly. For me, the early indications this season are encouraging. We're a tad stronger in the pack this season, and no team will bully us out of a game. But when you have the likes of Long and Cunningham being on the wrong side of thirty, you're bound to be on a downward spiral somewhere along the line.

On a dry pitch, the Saints are almost unplayable in Super League. Nobody can match our speed and skill, not even Leeds. When it rains, our big strengths (speed at the ptb mainly) are taken away and Leeds get us in other areas. They are the more adaptable team IMO.

Over a season we'll struggle to match Leeds as our squad is small and the depth is covered by inexperienced youngsters. Whether we have the stamina to win the Grand Final or Challenge Cup, who knows. I just hope it's dry on April 5th.

I think this is a very accurate assessment and agree on every point raised.

This is proven in the last 2 seasons were we have the ability of winning one of the competitions but not both. The Challenge Cup and Grand Final is too close together now (about 7 weeks) and its proven very difficult to try and do the double.
However I think Leeds will find it tough this season, they already look a tired bunch and they like Saints have players coming to the end of there careers.

Fair assessment.

I understand where you're coming from but surely if they were more the adaptable team then they'd be our equal in the dry? But they don't seem to be. It seems to me that the two teams have different default playing styles and one (ours) is more effective in the dry while the other (theirs) is more effective in the mud. But they are the Rhinos, so I suppose you'd expect that.

I wonder if Mr Potter can devise an alternative wet weather style of play for Saints? We'd just be unbeatable if he did.

Also backed by the fact that we are not a "big physical team". Our pack matched up against the other top 4/5 packs would look small - I'm not saying we don't make that up in skill and technique - however, in bad conditions, good little uns tend to get done by good big uns. Leeds' pack is considerable more sizaeble than ours and they are complinented by nippy backs.

I think we need to look at this as we go forward. Tony P is a good addition in this area - size and skill shown nicely so far - perhaps future recruitment may look to add to the size element of the sqaud further? I could see us adding a new Maurie in the next 18months (rough South Sea Islander gem to polish up) and if Lyon wasn't available for a centre spot, a beast in the mould of Kev Iro would be a possible alternative? I don't want us to turn into Bratfut but I do want us to be a flexible team that can win in all conditions.

I don't think that's fair on Leeds. They're a very skillful side.

Blobby is saying that in the dry our attack is exceptional, but Leeds have a more rounded game that allows them to adapt to varying conditions more easily than we can, and I think he's right.

thats why in summer rugby we have consistantly performed in the league, but with the only league game that matters in october, we often fall short

The fundamental difference with the ageing players is Saints' are the pivotal players, Leeds' aren't.

Big couple of years coming for Saints in respect of recruitment.

Should'nt need to be much recruitment with Eastmond, Moore and Wheeler nset to take over those pivotal positions in the next 12 to 24 months.

I don't see a Sean Long coming through at this stage?

Having said that, Longy started as a flash in the pan 6 who turned into a top No.7 - could eastmond do the same?

Leeds had a couple of very poor years whilst blooding the kids who have since won them the league twice. We slaughtered them at our place ( well, Valley Parade) in 2002, and that side inlcuded Bailey, JJBuchanan, McGuire, Burrow, and diskin (ithink). all of which have gone on to prove themselves at SL and international level.

I wish my club had a progressive youths system that allowed for player development. the only time we had a wave of kids coming through was in 1998 when Leon Pryce, Paul Deacon and Fielden all came through, but that was because of injuries!

eastmond will be a good player. Moore will be a good backup to Roby at hooker and from what little I have seen of wheeler, he could do the same as long did, start on the wing and gradually move inside to be a playmaker.

BTW, what a game on Friday!!!! I wish the Bulls could compete like that. two great sides showing what a great game RL can be!

The two teams are very evenly matched and whoever plays best on the day wins, it has nothing to do with the weather and it was never used by any Saints fans as an excuse until the last two grand finals.

We never needed an excuse until the last two finals.

Before the rain it was Terry Newton

We may not be a big pack to we have a mobile pack. All our forwards get get around the pitch and most can play lots of minutes.

It's a poor excuse, but the Saints are alot better in the dry. We don't adapt as well in the rain as Leeds do, and that's our undoing. Champion teams should be able to adapt, and that's why we're second best to Leeds right now. Saints need to find a way to win in all situations not just when it's cracking the flags.

I didn't say they weren't. I was speaking about default attacking styles. Even that god of RL pundetry Phil Clarke agrees with me (so there!).


I think that is being unfair to Saints. I think Saints have a very rounded game (except their in-field kicking game could improve; and did so noticeably on Friday I have to say) but their default style is better suited to dry conditions.

I was actually criticising neither team but rather observing the difference in play and thinking it more a question of style than skill. I don't see either team as more or less adaptable or skillful than the other, just different (one reason for the poor showing at the world cup maybe?).

Sorry buddy, thats a pile of c**k

for 3 reasons.

1) Our sucess has been built on good yardage up the middle and scooting this is far more adaptable in the rain than if you rely on an expansive game.

2) Our sucess has also been built on strong defence which gives us a significant advantage in tight games in poor conditions.

3) Leeds are an expansive team who throw plenty of offloads, this is much more difficult to get away with in the rain.

When it was know that there was going to be rain in the GF I was made up as IMO it suits us far more.

It's fooking not!



Our main strength comes from speed around the ruck. Our most dangerous players attacking are Pryce, Roby and Cunningham who all scoot from dummy half and hang around the PTB area. In the dry weather our speed at the ruck makes us a huge amount of yards creating gaps for our mobile forwards such as Gilmour, Flannery and Wilkin. Sure we have other weapons such as Gidley and Long who are adaptable, but our big threats come at acting half. In the rain, it's obviously going to be slower.

Leeds play a different game. They like to offload the ball and get the ball wide, particularly to their back rowers who cause damage. Leeds have a bigger pack than us, which means in the rain they are more adaptable to the conditions.

We can play in the rain, I never once said we couldn't, but Leeds are better suited to it, as they have bigger pack.