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| Alibert for me has gone from an inept clown to one of the best in Superleague, still not a high standard granted but he's improved non the less.
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"The McGuire one shouldn't even be being discussed - clear knock on. Never a half volley in a million years.
I personally think R.Hicks and Co. will get a seeing to by Cummins over the forward pass, but every game has it's fair share of forward passes and we've often been the beneficiary.'"
If that was a knock on, we have a rule in SL which is literally impossible to adhere to.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"If that was a knock on, we have a rule in SL which is literally impossible to adhere to.'"
Which rule is that?
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| Quote ="Ferdy"What does "we have a tough bunch here and sometimes you have to dust off the steel" mean?'"
Maybe that grunt, effort and hard work is all good but it also needs to be polished with some smart play and decisions. Clutching at more straws and trying to hang McDermott with his everyword. I thought he spoke well as he often does, you carry on though I know who I think sound like the clueless ones
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"The McGuire one shouldn't even be being discussed - clear knock on. Never a half volley in a million years.
I personally think R.Hicks and Co. will get a seeing to by Cummins over the forward pass, but every game has it's fair share of forward passes and we've often been the beneficiary.'"
Let's not kid ourselves refs and officials can get away with very bad games without any come back at all. All cummins will do is make excuses for them. Managers are scared to say anything against them as all that happens, even if they are right is a fine
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"Which rule is that?'"
The drop kick rule. The idea that the ball can be kicked at the exact moment it hits the floor rests only on the level of minutiae we are prepared to measure it to. As that level is undefined it is simply impossible to rule on and as such impossible to adhere to.
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| Quote ="Ferdy"Let's not kid ourselves refs and officials can get away with very bad games without any come back at all. All cummins will do is make excuses for them. Managers are scared to say anything against them as all that happens, even if they are right is a fine'"
I know from experience that officials can and will be reprimanded for big mistakes, especially those made in front of the SKY cameras.
Like I said in another thread, I don't want to dwell on that incident because in the context of our season it does not matter a jot.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"The drop kick rule. The idea that the ball can be kicked at the exact moment it hits the floor rests only on the level of minutiae we are prepared to measure it to. As that level is undefined it is simply impossible to rule on and as such impossible to adhere to.'"
McGuire's was nowhere near simultaneous and Ganson exercised his discretion correctly.
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| Quote ="Seth"Maybe that grunt, effort and hard work is all good but it also needs to be polished with some smart play and decisions. Clutching at more straws and trying to hang McDermott with his everyword. I thought he spoke well as he often does, you carry on though I know who I think sound like the clueless ones'"
I personally think you are cluching at straws and clueless if you think that's what he means. And regulary speaks well???
Are you Brian mcdounuts missus?
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"I know from experience that officials can and will be reprimanded for big mistakes, especially those made in front of the SKY cameras.
Like I said in another thread, I don't want to dwell on that incident because in the context of our season it does not matter a jot.'"
I fully agree there but I do think it asks a lot of questions about how we are/should be using the video ref...what if it had been a grand final?!?
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"I know from experience that officials can and will be reprimanded for big mistakes, especially those made in front of the SKY cameras.
Like I said in another thread, I don't want to dwell on that incident because in the context of our season it does not matter a jot.'"
Fair enough being a ref you will know better than me and most of us on here.
I agree don't think the decision matters particulary in our season. But from the outside looking in there seems to be no consequence to poor performances from refs and officials
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"The drop kick rule. The idea that the ball can be kicked at the exact moment it hits the floor rests only on the level of minutiae we are prepared to measure it to. As that level is undefined it is simply impossible to rule on and as such impossible to adhere to.'"
One thing's for sure - all captains should be politely asking the ref to go to the video in the event of an important drop goal in a televised game!
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| Quote ="Omar Little"I fully agree there but I do think it asks a lot of questions about how we are/should be using the video ref...what if it had been a grand final?!?'"
I agree, it is a funny procedure.
It's interesting that the VR doesn't look at forward passes because the cameras give angles which can give a warped perspective of the play, yet the RFL are happy to go with a TJ's 'warped perspective'. IMO if we can judge a knock on with a camera we can also judge forward passes.
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| Quote ="Omar Little"1. Probably
2. Lets not make up our our own new rules
'"
Not sure where I pulled that from.
I haven't even been drinking.
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"McGuire's was nowhere near simultaneous and Ganson exercised his discretion correctly.'"
mainly because simultaneous doesnt exist other than the level we are prepared to measure it to. If that was a drop goal attempt you wouldnt be arguing it should be ruled out for a knock on. In fact it would be a text book example of a drop kick. The fact it wasnt is irrelevant. There was less than a frame between the ball hitting the ground and Mcguires foot touching it, to expect referees to judge (and in most cases with the naked eye) between that not being a drop kick ( his foot touch is it first) and it being a knock on (it hitting the ground first) makes it simply impossible to adhere to. Nobody in the history of the world has had the dexterity to hit the ball at the exact moment it hits the ground, nobody in the history of the world has the ability to judge it.
If Mcguires was a knock on, we cannot, as people, adhere to that rule. We are simply as a kicker and a referee, guessing.
It took Ganson 2 minutes of slow motion for him to be confident the ball hit the ground first, that should have told him the correct answer.
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| Most impressive part of the performance was not crumbling after wigans start to the 2nd half. It's a step in the right direction.
It's needs to be backed up with another good performance next week. Results aren't as important for us anymore, as we are sleep walking and stumbling into 5 - 8th place.
Best chance of silverware is 3 mammoth performances in the CC and some luck.
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| Quote ="Kosh"Not sure where I pulled that from.
I haven't even been drinking.
'"
Well learn your lesson, go to the fridge and open a beer.
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"I agree, it is a funny procedure.
It's interesting that the VR doesn't look at forward passes because the cameras give angles which can give a warped perspective of the play, yet the RFL are happy to go with a TJ's 'warped perspective'. IMO if we can judge a knock on with a camera we can also judge forward passes.'"
The Wigan try which was given highlighted the idiocy of that rule. It was sent as a knock on having left one Wigan players hand and landed in anothers, yet had that been judged as a deliberate rather than accidental action, the exact same scene couldnt have been judged by the referee.
Surely it cannot beyond an engineer to see an obvious solution to the forward pass issue. The complexity of hawkeye in tennis and cricket is far greater than that judging a forward pass.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"mainly because simultaneous doesnt exist other than the level we are prepared to measure it to. If that was a drop goal attempt you wouldnt be arguing it should be ruled out for a knock on. In fact it would be a text book example of a drop kick. The fact it wasnt is irrelevant. There was less than a frame between the ball hitting the ground and Mcguires foot touching it, to expect referees to judge (and in most cases with the naked eye) between that not being a drop kick ( his foot touch is it first) and it being a knock on (it hitting the ground first) makes it simply impossible to adhere to. Nobody in the history of the world has had the dexterity to hit the ball at the exact moment it hits the ground, nobody in the history of the world has the ability to judge it.
If Mcguires was a knock on, we cannot, as people, adhere to that rule. We are simply as a kicker and a referee, guessing.
It took Ganson 2 minutes of slow motion for him to be confident the ball hit the ground first, that should have told him the correct answer.'"
But you would agree there is a limit? For example, you wouldn't let a prop knock on and then hoof the ball downfield?
For me, there was too much time between the ball hitting the ground and McGuire kicking the ball. I don't think it was a half-volley.
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| Quote ="Ferdy"I personally think you are cluching at straws and clueless if you think that's what he means. And regulary speaks well???
Are you Brian mcdounuts missus?'"
Just speaking as someone with more knowledge and experience of the game than yourself. Also the making up of silly little names speaks volumes about you.
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| It was a strange one. I have seen people grubber the ball on the 1/2 volley purposely, plenty of times and pla been allowed to continue.
McGuire was going to kick the ball and had it dislodged by Tomkins, it's not like he dropped it and kicked it as an after thought. For this reason I could see a try being awarded, not that I feel we can complain that it wasn't. I think that Ganson was thinking about giving it, hence the delay.
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| Quote ="kirkstaller"But you would agree there is a limit? For example, you wouldn't let a prop knock on and then hoof the ball downfield?
For me, there was too much time between the ball hitting the ground and McGuire kicking the ball. I don't think it was a half-volley.'"
There was too much time when it was played in slow motion with the frame rate slowed and a massive gap between each frame. But in real time it wasnt a noticable difference.
The thought process Ganson had to apply was would i rule this out as a drop goal at full speed, otherwise we have the exact same kick ruled differently depending on the supposed aim of it.
Maybe it is a rule that needs cleaning up and a different criteria placed, such as the ball needs to be kicked before it leaves the ground again, but as per the rules and every judgement of a kick previously, Mcguire executed a text book drop kick.
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| We certainly did not have the rub of the green but despite the:
forward pass try and...
the two times Wigan lost the ball at a PTB near their line yet missed by the 3 officials and....
S Tomkins not being sin binned which even the Sky comentators briefly mentioned
.....we did put in a worthy performance which included a good come back after the lapses just after half time. So well done the team and well done McD.
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| Quote ="SmokeyTA"There was too much time when it was played in slow motion with the frame rate slowed and a massive gap between each frame. But in real time it wasnt a noticable difference.
The thought process Ganson had to apply was would i rule this out as a drop goal at full speed, otherwise we have the exact same kick ruled differently depending on the supposed aim of it.
Maybe it is a rule that needs cleaning up and a different criteria placed, such as the ball needs to be kicked before it leaves the ground again, but as per the rules and every judgement of a kick previously, Mcguire executed a text book drop kick.'"
Even in real time (barring my first viewing, which was obstructed) I wouldn't have given it. There was simply too much time between.
I too would like to see it cleaned up, but how exactly?
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| Well done on hardly bringing any fans, losing your cup final and failing to beat us in one of our worst performances of the season
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