Buderus... next question.

Whoever said he was average since 2004 is been silly. But we would have won the GF in 2009 with Buderus at hooker, he was clearly the better of the two hookers that year before his injury, just never got the chance to prove it. So whoever put that I agree with them.



I would have ditched Diskin at the end of 2009, but I think his long term contract that was previously granted to him covered 2010 so the club couldn't do that. But I certainly wouldn't have messed around last season giving him as much game time as he got.



What I find strange is that certain posters on this board want us to continue with the class of 2004-2009 with the acceptance of not winning anything, because we have already had it so good. Yet Buderus get's classed as a failure because of the club not winning things.

. Just because the club might not win anything whilst he is at the hooking helm doesn't mean he is a failure if that transpires. Rugby League is a team game, and never from my memory can I remember teams winning championships because of one player, lucky draws to get to a CC final maybe but not championships.

Buderus legacy will probably go down as the development of two top class hookers at the club he will leave behind. And if they go on to be part of a successfull side then that will do for me, Buderus will have done his job.



I wasn't suggesting you were been blinkered. I said some posters.

Gawd, my tits have never been so bored!

We're halfway through a challenging season, and the numpties are still chelping on about the perceived abilities and influences of Diskin v Buderus.

Diskin, at this stage of his career has found his level at the Bulls. It's several grades lower than in his pomp of 7 years ago, but such is life. Similarly, Buderus is also playing within his comfort zone with us, and I for one reckon the Leeds managment called it right when players were allowed to leave last season.

You know what I'm going to write here don't you?

What an excellent post. Diskin was a great player for Leeds and has since moved on. Lots of people are now complaining about the contribution of a certain Senior centre currently playing. His previous exploits in a Rhinos shirt have been magnificent to watch, this season leaves a lot to be desired. It seems that people can distinguish between Senior's previous exploits and the most recent few seasons decline but are having problems making the same connection regarding Diskin. Diskin was a great servant and player for Leeds but the time had come to move on. I wish him all the luck in the world and hope he does well. I also think that it is time for Senior to move on/retire, providing with have adequate cover. Which, with all the injuries we keep getting isn't possible for the time-being. So for now I hope he is solid in defence and makes no stupid mistakes and occasionally flashes of previous glories. Will always be one of my favourite players.

I think I referred to Diskin post 2004 earlier. My opinion is that in 2004 he was playing very well (our key man that year in many respects). After the injury I think we didn't see the same player again. He wasn't a bad hooker, but he wasn't nearly as influential as he was in 2004. I could see that the brain was still willing, but his body had lost that little bit extra that took him to another level.

I would rather have the Diskin of 2004 (especially if he'd continued on his improvement trajectory) over the Buderus of 2009. I think that Diskin in 2007 was probably the best he's been since his injury, but not to the level of 2004. I think him being spelled did nothing for his own performances or those of the team

Theories about 2009 are just that. If this then that. no one will know. This is sport. What we do know is that Diskin was our sole hooker (the role he performed best in) for the latter half of that season, and we were successful. Our lack of success last season was IMO down to many other factors than whether we had Diskin or Buderus or both playing.

I think I would probably agree with all of that. And you can now see the pattern as to why he is no longer at Leeds. Not because he wasn't a superb asset to this club through his time, but because his levels of performance were going backwards and backwards, to a point where we had better options.

To suggest Diskin's role in winning the 2009 GF was so crucial that it would not have been possible for Buderus to fill the same role is laughable.

Great players cannot win things single handed, by your logic you should never have top players in your side unless you are certain of winning something - otherwise they are abject failures!!

By your logic the likes of Brad Godden and Marc Glanville were abject failures because Leeds never won a GF when they were here?

People forget or ignore that DB was at Leeds for a significant part of 2009 GF winning season. Had we have picked up the GF trophy last year, would we have said that Peacock hadn't had enough part in proceedings?

Buderus was part of the squad, and him sharing the role with Diskin probably allowed Diskin to be more fresh for the business end of the season, and he certainly took full advantage, and raised his game

While it's impossible to know it's not unreasonable to reach that conclusion.

People should take note of Kevin Sinfield's speeches at the Grand Final trophy presentations. The playing squad, the coaching team, the administrators and the fans win a Championship not any one individual.

My thoughts entirely.

I have supported Leeds for over 50 years and had I only been pleased when we won silverware I would had a most unhappy time - as indeed would supporters from every other team over the years as purple patches never last for ever.

Its the game I love first and foremost. To have witnessed the spectacle of so many great players, from different clubs, parading their skills has given me the most pleasure and excitment - win or lose. It is the brilliant individual skills of players that I recall more than our captain of the day holding up a trophy.

Of course its great to win but sport is about much more than that. Rugby League is in the entertainments business and I could never except boring rugby as a price for winning trophies.

Its all about the quality of the play and skill of the players and why we should always allow our creative players the freedom to make mistakes. I recall occassions when a player like John Holmes for instance had made a mistake with a pass or kick, but was aplauded by a knowledgable section of the crowd who had realised that he was trying to achieve something special.

I don't have problems with 'special' players - just that I've seen far too many do flash things for Leeds whilst the team's won nothing. McGuire I'd class as a special player that's done both. I watch Leeds to see them win - its sport not dancing, and I'd take an ugly year and GF win like 2009 over any 'pretty rugby no win' season any day of the week. Each to their own.

This is the unsubstantiated hyperbole surrounding Buderus that makes me chuckle.

McShane and Hood have been at Leeds a long time, they've been scouted extensively by Leeds, they've been coached by Leeds coaching staff through all junior levels but if both go on to be part of a successful side* it will all be down to an an Antipodean player who spent 3 season's art the club, none of which were spent on the coaching staff. The success of their entire careers will be down to rubbing shoulders with Buderus in the dressing room. In a similar vein Kevin Sinfileld should be down on his knees thanking Bradley Clyde for his entire Leeds career.

Pass me the sick bucket.

*If they go on to be pat of a successful side it will be great. We'll have one of our own developed players at 9 enjoying team success in a team environment. What an innovative idea. If only we'd done it before.

That's not his logic at all. He has said, as I have many times, that Buderus is a class act.

His logic is simple. He'd rather watch a successful team than an unsuccessful team with the odd super talented individual playing within it.

And what is it you think we do not agree on?

That's just your opinion Gareth. It's not a true situation but your opinion. The club and players have gone at lengths to mention the amount of work they do with Buderus. The club identified Buderus to come in specifically for that role. Only last week McShane was giving interviews on the amount of work he has done with Buderus.

Oh and Hood hasn't been at Leeds a long time, he was initially part of the Bradford academy, but identified by Leeds as a future star and speficifically to work with Buderus. Both players signing in 2008, although of course Buderus arrived for 2009 season.

Young players will learn from whoever they come into contact with ..... good and bad.

If I were to hazard a wild guess at McShane's rapid progress in the role recently I might be tempted to point a finger in the direction of the new Leeds assistant coach. Radical or what?

Oh.?

Shanter.?

Good thread this.?

It's the one you've missed off the list.

The overall benefit to Leeds Rhinos RLFC of signing Danny Buderus.

Had not thought of that, an extremely valid point! I guess McShane & Hood [ishould[/i be in good hands whilst 2 of the best hookers of the modern era are in situ

being. ?

Indeed.

None of us can say definitively whether it's down to the player's own individual talent and work rate, the influence of a team mate, the influence of a new coach or the increased opportunities in the first team (opportunities which could have come sooner had the antipodean not been signed).

To say any success McShane or Hood might achieve in the future is Buderus's' "legacy" is quite simply unsustainable fantasy.

I see. I suspect you are right and we will not agree on that.

So do you now recognise that I have never argued the proposition that "Buderus cannot ever be considered as good as Diskin unless he wins 4 grand finals"

Of course they do work with him. They do work with Kirke and Bailey. They all work together. Is Buderus on the coaching staff?

Is this a fact or your opinion?

In the context of Hood, a young player who hasn't yet made the first team, being on Leeds books for four years is a long time. You're saying he's a player Leeds had clearly scouted before they signed him and has been with them for years. Haven't you kind of proven my point?