Clearly not as only 4 trophies from a potential 15 at his time at Leeds proves. Quite a quality to win the LLS in 2004 and with his team of Smith-made-Champions only win 3 of the next 13 titles (and 1 of the last 11)......meanwhile the team (Saints) who finished 15pts and 8 defeats behind this new champion team would go on to win 7 of those 11! Similar story after lifting the LLS '11, only 1 success from 6 (and the LLS ain't looking great for them atm) whilst McDermotthas taken 3 of the next 7 since then. Nice pattern emerging here.



Yes Warrington have improved, but hardly surprising when (since they knocked Smith and Leeds out of the '06 playoffs) they've signed Morley, Atkins, Hodgson, King, Anderson brothers, Monaghan brothers, Myler, Ratchford, Waterhouse, Carvell and others. Similar situation as Leeds, the guy above him making the signings deserves a huge chunk of the credit. Granted they've won CC's (helped breaking the trophy draught by facing another team who'd not won anything in ages in the '09 final) but their playoff records shows he still hasn't turned them and the club into 'Champions' even though its his 'speciality'.

Given that he has another 2 years after this one on his contract I would bet he'll win them one GF at least but even 2 from 6 full seasons given his resources would be slightly underachieving, if he only lifts one then massive underachievement.

Quite interesting how he left it so late last year to sign a new contract at Wire, probably waiting to see if another team eager to splash cash was available to him......especially since Wire coincidentally didn't add to their squad in the off season. Quite like how when he left Leeds the big signings dried up, must've gotten the word from GH that players of the likes of Webb, Peacock, Lauitiiti and Ellis weren't going to so regular anymore. Without big signings Smith wanted away and didn't want to build a dynasty. Shows the measure of the man really and it ain't great.

The point made was that McDermott played an important role as Smith's assistant coach in producing a mental toughness and winning mentality in the Champion side that McLennan inherited.




The team McDermott inherited were not Champions. They were badly prepared for the WCC in 2010, they were badly beaten in the Cup final, and were knocked out of the playoffs at home to Wigan 6-26. For much of the season they played poor rugby. If it is an overstatement to say the team had not lost the plot they still had gone backwards or gone off the boil or whatever.


In McDermott's first season he was without 2 of the most influential players for half the time and had an several other first teamers out injured and therefore it took time to bring back the champion ethos. It is to his great credit that he was able to produce the turnaround from 8th place in July and then to a historic Championship win from 5th place and unlucky to be lose the Cup final to Wigan along the way.

In his 2nd season McDermott won the WCC and again reached the Cup Final and against all the odds once again produced a Champion side form the disadvantage of 5th place What many of his critics overlook is that he is working with the same key group of players who are older, slower and past their best and so has a big disadvantage compared to the two former coaches.



Even if Leeds win nothing this year, McDermott will still have a better record of getting to finals than McLennan

I wonder which SL clubs will be clamouring to sign McDermott if and when his tenure at Headingley is over?

There has only been one consistent throughout, Gary Hetherington. The one person that was here prior to the 2004 title, assembling that squad that Smith coaches to the title. The one person that saw the transition through Mclennan and McDermott and the transition in personell.

That person remains in charge today and remains in charge of the transition going forward. Why anybody on here would think they know better than he what the squad needs in the next few years is beyond me.

Comparing different coaches achievements in different periods with different players is not scientific and therefore inconclusive.

I agree with tvoc in that Smith has produced teams that play an expansive attractive game. But like the Printer has pointed out not without some big name signings.

The point that I am trying to get across to McDermotts many critics is that they underestimate his abilities and achievements.

When Smith first went to Huddersfield as coach he lost a record sequence of matches (similar pattern at Warrington) and they finished bottom of the table and were relegated. They gained promotion the following season with McDermott joining as Smiths assistant coach in 2003. The pair then came to Headingley together and together coached us to the Championship in 2004. IMO McDermott made a big contribution to the 2004 championship and in creating the platform for the teams future success and I was fortunate to witness this first hand on several occassions.

Look, here's the thing. Tony Smith did great things at Leeds. Then he left. Things move on. Comparing McDermott to Smith is ot only difficult because of the different situations they inherited, it's also not all that relevant.

Indeed. But let's not forget that GH publicly questioned whether the current squad was up to scratch about this time last year. IIRC he has stated that finishing top or thereabouts was a target for this season.

I don't have a particular axe to grind about McDermott (anymore), but I suspect that GH is not happy for the club to pin everything on another last gasp play-off charge. The WCC loss and early exit from the CC won't have been good for business (compared to better efforts last year), so I wonder what will happen to McDermott's permanent/rolling contract under the circumstances of things not picking up. Or indeed some of our established playing squad.

I don't think so. The team under smith has pretty much reached it's zenith in the last couple of years, that was when they were ''supposed'' to win the grand final, but they didn't even make it in 2011 after being dominant in the regular season and after finally making it, lost last year, both times being thwarted by the apprentice and his OAP's.

They may still have another big playoff series in them but i'm not sure. The team will need rebuilding very shortly with many of their key players pretty much at the end of the line.

I seem to remember than in the disappointment of 2006 people on here were postulating that it was the loss of a certain assistant coach that caused Leeds to fall away, and that a certain head coach had been found out.

In the 4 seasons Brian Mcdermott has spent on the coaching staff at Leeds they have won an LLS, 3 Grand Finals, appeared in 4, and appeared in 3 Challenge Cup Finals. That’s a record that stands on its own as quality, it doesn’t need comparing to Smith, Mclennan or anybody else.

Id also add on the make up/quality of the squad etc, that its important to remember that this is an SC game and that SC is something that doesn’t only need to be planned in to our recruitment for each season in isolation but how this seasons recruitment effects next season. I have no doubt that some these extensions we have seen midway through seasons, especially over the last few years are simply maximising the use of the SC. Take Kirke as an example, whilst in isolation there may be better players and ones which come at a similar price, what the continuation of his contract, as opposed to signing a new player, allows us to do is get better cap value from the same money. If we have say £200k spare this year, and Kirke has a £75k per annum contract, what the renegotiation would allow us to do is get better value by paying him £150k this year, £37.5k next year, and £37.5k the year after. Whilst you may get a similar or even better quality player for £75k a year you almost certainly cant get one for £37.5k which will be Kirke’s cap cost for the next two years. This allows to keep/recruit better quality players. We do that 3 times and that is an extra £107.5k on the cap each year (I don’t know Kirkes wages, those figures are made up to illustrate)

It's an interesting observation, but one that IMO will not be ultimatly brought into question as I believe leeds will recover their league form, huddserfield will falter and leeds will wind up finishing 2nd.

Great recall.

Smith was villified and crucified on here between 2006 and right up to the 2007 GF before he made a lot of posters look silly. Far too much credit was given to Mcdermott by many posters for Smith's successes. probably the same posters now villifying and crucifying McDermott.

Substandard.com is certainly more lively when we're in bad form than good.

This has been an interesting debate, and in truth there is no definitive answer.

Its like trying to say who is the best scientific mind in history. Some say Einstein, some say Newton, some say Gallileo. The truth is that without the work of the people who were there first (who moved things forward so much) they wouldn't have been able to do their job as well as they did.

Powell took a club that had won very little with a very expensive and underperforming squad and dismantled it and threw in the promising youngsters who still form the core of the squad

Smith took a squad with good ability, but massive potential and created a winning culture build upon togetherness. He also played a brand of rugby not seen since.

McClennan took a team of players who had the ability, and the experience of winning and got the best out of them. He didn't need to be the best coach because the players had become used to winning. However, they needed to be made to beleive they would win, and needed to be inspired. Bluey was a people guy, and took a team that would otherwise not have had the hunger and got them to perform again and again.

McDermott came in when it was clear that the lack of structure and boundries were becoming a problem. I think he maintained the spirit and togetherness of the club, whilst re-introducing the structure.

Bringing in Smith when we brought in POwell would unlikely have worked, same for all the other appointments. the key to the coaches wasn't just their skills it was the timing. In a salary caped sport where in theory everyone can spend the same, the real difference maker can be the coach. Get the right coach (Skills, or motivator, or structure provider etc) and the quality group of players you have should be able to compete and win.

Other things that have occurred to me whilst reading this thread:
Before 2008, only Saints had won SL back to back.
Before 2008, no coach had won the SL back to back.
Before 2008, no club had won the WCC and SL in the same calendar year.
Before 2009, no club had won SL 3 times on the bounce.
Bluey and McDermott both achieved #1-3.
Bluey achieved #4. McDermott may still achieve it too

In 2005/6 when McDermott left, and things started to go wrong at Leeds, many on here were suggesting that he was the brains behind Leeds. I have no idea whether he was or not, but people have short memories.

In Smiths tenure we saw very similar baffling decisions in the lineup. Lauiti'iti and JJB at prop, Senior selected at Cardiff, Young players (Scruton, Gibson, Smith etc) not given a good chance in the first team. Cummins played a hell of a lot in 2004, before Calderwood eventually nailled down his place. McDonald & Feather regulars in the team despite performances which make Kirke look impressive. We saw long losing streaks in 2005 and 2006, but what we remember is the nights like 2004 and 2007 at Old Trafford. Smith was not a bad coach, he was an excellent one. But so have the two that have been in the seat since. They were just different.

Comparing coaches is pointless as the variables are too numerous.
Different squads of players - Moon vs Senior
Different ages of players - McGuire 2004 vs McGuire 2013
Different salaries of players
Different level of opposition - top 3 vs top 6
Salary cap relative to NRL and inflation

All three coaches had to work with the situation as it was at the time, and I think all three did a pretty good job, and if the next 3 coaches deliver 2 Sl titles each I'll be pretty happy

In other news I hear that McGuire has broken his fibula.

Yeah i know that, i just enjoy watching the anti-McDermott brigade get their knickers in a twist when you criticise their beloved Tony. Especially when people make out all was rosey during Smith's reign when it wasn't and that some are so hell bent on not giving McDermott any credit at all that they'd say Smith deserves more credit for the last 2 successes rather than the actual present coach.

Except it's doubtful anyone has said those things.

Smith's ability is to produce good entertaining rugby. Excellent defensive patterns and attacking structures that utilises the full width of the pitch and in both directions. He's a quality coach who produces entertaining teams who score freely.

He's brought success to two massively under achieving clubs and turned the fortunes around at another. His personal CV is full having coached teams to GF, CC, LLS and WCC.

A fact clearly reflected in his trophy haul from 2005 to date.

And the rest.



Does the live salary cap allow for the obvious pre-loading of contracts in such a manner? To be honest I thought there were regulations in place to prevent such abuses.

I can see the issues around backloading a contract, I can’t see what the issue the game would have with front-loading the contract like that would be?

As far as I am aware there is no provision to pay a player more in the first than last year of the contract, im not sure what the expected gain from there being so would be?

The salary cap regs do say that for cap audit purposes, reward for services across the length of a contract can be spread pro-rata between the salary cap years covered by that contract, rather than being based on when the salary was received by the player.

So if you agreed to pay a player £100k in year one, then £50k per year for years two, three and four, the RFL could interpret that as being £62.5k per year for each of the four salary cap years.

It's how they deal with signing bonuses for cap purposes, they pro-rata them across the length of the contract.

Signing bonuses can definitely be treated that way but there isn’t any specific clause saying that salaries will be. In fact the only mention of it within the SC rules is that salaries may be looked at pro-rata if the auditor deems that the payment was accrued in that year. From the wording of the rules it appears that front-loading is permissible as long as it isn’t particularly egregious or detrimental to the player.

[ithe RSCM may decide to treat a Club’s liability to a Player for salary and/or specific payments or benefits (including but not limited to the specific cases set out in Clauses 5.6.6 and 5.6.7, below) as Accruing on a pro rata basis across all or part of the term of the Player’s Playing Contract, if the RSCM believes that such payment or benefit is being made in consideration for services rendered across such term.

In reaching a decision, the RSCM will act reasonably and will take into consideration:

the reasonableness of the schedule of payments and/or benefits and whether, in any given Salary Cap Year, the Player’s welfare and interests would be prejudiced by the proposed arrangements, and

the value of any termination payment (or other benefits) received by the Player from a previous club immediately before signing for the Club. The previous club may be in any country and of either rugby code and the details of any such payment must be supplied to the RSCM in writing.[/i

Now i would think that (using my completely made up example) the RFL could decide the schedule of payments unreasonable, you could easily argue that schedule of payments perfectly reasonable for a player who is declining, as well being to the benefit of the player by offering the safety of a guaranteed longer contract at their age. Maybe for Kirke the figures may seem a little excessive, but certainly for Peacock for example, you could argue that his market value was high, rapidly declining and as an ageing player he was benefitting from the security of a guaranteed longer contract.

Saying that I expect we will see a pretty significant overhaul of the SC in 2015 anyway and it will all be a bit irrelevant by then.

McGuire will be back in 8 weeks max. according to McDermott.

Vickery is a fabulous winger and deserves his repeated selection. according to McDermott.

Don`t try and change the subject whilt they are debating who is the best coach Leeds have had.
What do you think this subject is all about?

Like most subjects, it's about his determination to post things that shout "LOOK AT ME EVERYONE", irrespective of anything else in the thread.