Except earlier in the thread I wrote:

I'm still leaning towards Sinfield for among other reasons:

12-15 years service when he finishes
8 plus years as an inspirational leader on and off the field
A chance he'll become the clubs leading points scorer of all time
Consistent high levels of performance that earned international honours and on a short list for world player of the year
Inspirational finals perfomances which earned mom honours

Etc etc etc

Not sure how many of those other players you listed fit that criteria?

Indeed. However, that contributor should first check his scrap books about the timing of ETs second Leeds stint before diving in to give a definitive opinion in support of my post.

I'd hate to be proven right, which of course I am, by a questionable source.

Questionable source with regards the timing of Andrew Ettingshausen's Test career, in relation to his Leeds career from memory ..... probably.

Questionable source on who faced Dave Heron at stand-off on the 19th November 1989, from match reports and contempory records kept at the time ..... I would hope not.

I would hope not either especially as I full expect you to prove me right and put old Batley out of his misery any time soon.

There was an interesting line in Trevor Watson's YEP match report: "Dave Heron maintained the excellent form he has shown since his switch to number 6, although he spent most of the game in the back-row."

And on the face of it that comment will have been basically true with Dave Heron needing to revert to the back row after first Hugh Waddell was assaulted by Paul Moriarty's elbow and the worrying as hell incident involving Roy Powell swallowing his tongue and the panic that followed as he lay on the ground while receiving medical attention. Leeds had been forced into using their only two interchanges by the 28th minute with Gary Lord replacing Waddell on 14 mins and Paul Delaney replacing the unfortunate Powell.

Either way it didn't prevent the Leeds starting stand-off having a wow of a game, scoring two tries himself and setting another up for the supporting Schofield after Coleman had sent Heron into the clear.

Leeds:
Warren Wilson
Phil Ford, Garry Schofield, Carl Gibson, Vince Fawcett
David Heron, Craig Coleman
Hugh Waddell, Colin Maskill, Paul Dixon
Roy Powell, Craig Izzard, Gary Divorty
Subs:
Paul Delaney, Gary Lord

Widnes:
Alan Tait
Brimah Kebbie, Andy Currier, John Devereux, Martin Offiah
Jonathan Davies, David Hulme
Joe Grima, Phil McKenzie, Mike O'Neill
Paul Moriarty, David Smith, Paul Hulme
Subs:
David Marsh, Jason Critchley

If anyone knows of a more incident packed pro/semi-pro game I'd like to hear about it.

After his first few games at 6 I heard Heron quoted as saying he'd wasted all his career at 13.
Brad Fittler initially was known (apart from being fat) as a 13 and switched to 6 to become a legend - if only. We simply wouldn't have a 6 in the British game now who could compare to Heron. A lot of the qualities of the younger Iestyn, except with much more pace. And I still have him on tape head butting Andy Gregory (and getting away with it

).

Tough choice between Sinfield, Hanley and Heron for me...but ya knowI would probably go for Dave. Maybe it's just nostalgia, but I cannot remember being more excited about watching the talents of any other player... apart from John Holmes.

It is a legendary match. Recent supporters from the Super League Era would be sickened by it.

It's how Rugby League should be played.

Not many with the spuds to take on Joe Grima like Izzard did.

Dave Heron's misfortune was to be given his test debut at Hull in the opening game of the 1982 series against THE greatest team of all-time. He played in the 2nd Test at Wigan when GB couldn't even score a try against a 12-man Aussie team that had Les Boyd sent-off...and that was the premature end of his test career.

A terrible, terrible waste when you look at some of those who followed in his wake - the likes of Oldham's Terry Flanagan, David Hall (HKR), the recalled Mick Adams, Harry Pinner and Mick Potter. They were all steady club footballers but had none of the pace an flair of Heron.

And using all the above criteria is fine, though I'd be careful when singing Sinfield's praises WRT his career at international level. No offence intended but Sinfield's international career has been ordinary and it's often been a real struggle for him to make any impact. He's out of his depth against Australia and New Zealand for the most part. He's not, and never has been, a world class player. He is a fine club servant and organiser-in-chief at the level of Super League who has always worked hard at his game and made the best of his limited natural abilities. He's excelled primarily at goalkicking as a result of hard work and dedication, hence the points scoring records.

I've no idea what possessed a group of UK RL journalists nominate him for the Golden Boot one year apart from the fact that they always seem to include two or three British or English nominations each year. Sanity usually prevails in the end and an Australian or a Kiwi earns the accolade.

Ellery Hanley won the Golden Boot in 1988 and deservedly so. But then again, he actually was a world class player.

I deliberately didn't sing his praises with regards to his international performances. Merely mentioned he earned rep honours and been nominated. He had his best series at test level that year IIRC playing at hooker. I think most people recognise he has struggled to nail down any position at international level through a lack of pace and size.

I am not heralding him as a World class player, or as good as Hanley however he i still Leeds' greatest ever number 13 IMO, for all the reasons presented above.

I know you're probably only half serious but limited natural ability is harsh - he was recognised by the club as a talent from a very young age and although he has cetainly made the most of his ability that doesn't mean people who work hard and set high personal standards don't have some ability to begin with!

That's a sentence but it's late and you get my drift!

Sinfield has played 27 times for England/GB.

That's not a bad rep career however Keith may wish to paint it.

He might not have enjoyed significant successes against NZ and AUS but then again neither did Hanley in his 36 GB appearances.

I was recently watching an old Batley highlights DVD from the 1995 Centenary season, in which Dave Heron played 15-16 games for us. He was absolutely outstanding, scoring 7 or 8 tries at the age of 38 - one which featured a superb dummy and break from the halfway line and sprint to the posts for a score. He only had a relatively brief spell with the club, but I'd still stick him in by all-time favourite Batley XIII as one of the most talented players I've seen in our colours. His brother Wayne was a great player for us too, but the absolute antithesis of his brother! In short, Dave was the kind of classy footballer that we don't see in todays version of RL.

Having witnessed Hanley and Sinfield on numerous occasions playing their trade in the international arena both on home soil and down under, what is crystal clear is that Hanley never looked out of his depth playing against such world class opposition because he was an international and world class player himself. He played at the same level as the top Australian and Kiwi players. The same cannot be said for Sinfield who is a Super League standard player.

What is also apparent is that the national team was far more competitive with world class players like Hanley in the team. I don't recall the national team getting hammered 64-10, 52-4 or 46-16 when he was wearing the national shirt.

If Hanley was fit, he was always selected for GB/England. He was the first name on the team sheet. The same cannot be said for Sinfield who was dropped or not selected on several occasions by more than one coach. Even Tony Smith dropped him for the Semi Final of the RLWC of 2008 after his nightmare performances in Melbourne and Newcastle.

That's a significant difference in rep careers, no matter how G1 may wish to paint a picture of international equality and similarity between the two.

Completely agree (apart from the Moriarty elbow - glad that has mostly been removed from the game TBH). Most exciting game I've seen in ages was the Leeds/Saints home game two years ago (when Senior slapped Wilkin). A little bit of old school there, and set the scene for the GF nicely. Eddie and Stevo did the usual "this is all an outrage", "they've all lost the plot" while Phil Clarke sounded like he was knocking one out in pure pleasure.
I don't think the players aren't as tough as they were, I think they simply get it coached out of them.

Very true. It required a different order of courage/lunacy to take to the field in those days

Effort to disguise the weakness in your argument by fog knitting and changing the discussion duly noted.

Sinfield's displays for Leeds have been good enough to earn him rep honours 27 times so far in his career. For the purposes of this discussion that is all that is relevant, not how he played in those rep games,

It was shared for the first time, in 1988, between Peter Sterling and Hugh McGahan.

Being pedantic, Hanley won it in 1989, the first of only two British winners. The Aussie players and press were stunned when Andy Farrell got it in 2004, an absolute joke.

No one quibbled when when Hanley won it, partly because he had almost single-handedly taken Balmain to the 1988 grand final and then took the Lance Todd in 1989.

I guess it depends on your criteria. I think some people are picking a side thinking that Hanley at his best is better than Sinfield at his best, even though Hanley was at his best in 87-91 before he even joined Leeds. If you're picking under that criteria you could go for Bradley Clyde based on how he played in the early 90s for Canberra.

Looking at stand off does Cliff Lyons qualify as being better than McGuire based on two short spells with the club and winning one Yorkshire Cup? He does in my book but some may argue.

I acknowledge your efforts to restrict the terms of reference on the discussion in order to portray your selection of Sinfield in the best possible light.

Quote ="miscreant"It was shared for the first time, in 1988, between Peter Sterling and Hugh McGahan. Being pedantic, Hanley won it in 1989, the first of only two British winners. The Aussie players and press were stunned when Andy Farrell got it in 2004, an absolute joke. No one quibbled when when Hanley won it, partly because he had almost single-handedly taken Balmain to the 1988 grand final and then took the Lance Todd in 1989.'" According to Wikipedia (agreed, it's not the most valuable source for accuracy)... [i"The award was founded in early 1985 by the British magazine Open Rugby and was awarded to Wally Lewis for his performances throughout 1984. Lewis and the other pre-1990 winners were initially recognised for the years that they collected the award, not for the year of their performances, but this was changed by Rugby League World magazine in 2010"[/i en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_Leag ... rd#Winners

Quote ="miscreant"It was shared for the first time, in 1988, between Peter Sterling and Hugh McGahan. Being pedantic, Hanley won it in 1989, the first of only two British winners. The Aussie players and press were stunned when Andy Farrell got it in 2004, an absolute joke. No one quibbled when when Hanley won it, partly because he had almost single-handedly taken Balmain to the 1988 grand final and then took the Lance Todd in 1989.'" According to Wikipedia (agreed, it's not the most valuable source for accuracy)... [i"The award was founded in early 1985 by the British magazine Open Rugby and was awarded to Wally Lewis for his performances throughout 1984. Lewis and the other pre-1990 winners were initially recognised for the years that they collected the award, not for the year of their performances, but this was changed by Rugby League World magazine in 2010"[/i en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rugby_Leag ... rd#Winners

Wasn't Schofield recently awarded one retrospectively for 1990?

Did he have a brother called Ian?

__________



That's not why I picked Hanley over Sinfield. Hanley spent four seasons at Headingley and in the final one of those scored 41 tries. Yes, Leeds didn't get to see the very, very best of Hanley but they still got to see a modern great going about his business with a focus and determination to succeed without equal.

It's a team sport and no single player, no matter how personally driven, can compensate for players around them who are not prepared to give 100%

I imagine Sinfield will be honoured to be mentioned in the same company.

The same can be said of Sinfield



I imagine Hanley too would be honoured to be mentioned in the same company as Sinfield.

Hanley was certainly a more powerful physical player than Sinfield. But Sinfield is certainly a more creative player than Hanley and a better passer with the ability put others into space and make regular scoring opportunities for others

I don't have a problem with anyone not sharing my opinion.

Sinfield had a better kicking game too.