I think we should be paying as much as we can afford to in order to secure the best talent available to us. Saving money to sign 2nd, 3rd or 4th choices will see us move backwards like we currently are. It has never been as important to sign top quality players when there will be a large turnover of players, meaning we can't be taking punts on unknowns in the hope they will gel. (see Bradford)

Leeds had Shenton in the bag last year then when Smith became available they had to make a straight choice between the 2. Looking at it now they probably realise they made the wrong choice.

Are you saying Smith is done? He's a utility back at present and needs to decide what position he's going to go for on a permanent basis (although nothing wrong with being a good utility back). But done? Some people have also spoken about Hall as though he's 30+ and compared him to Amos Roberts. WTF?

The argument that players may not want to come to Leeds with a core of the likes of Sinfield, McGuire etc is bizarre. Are you suggesting McGuire (assuming he gets to full fitness) and Sinfield aren't amongst the very best in their positions? Why wouldn't you want to play alongside them? The only players they would put off are stand offs/loose forwards ready for game time now.

I'm not saying Smith is done i just think that since he came back from union he has been a shadow of the player he once was and at the moment i think Shenton is the better player but if Smith gets back to his best he is on par if not better with his attacking ability.

Totally agree about Sinfield and Mcguire though, they're far from finished and on last years form still the best in there respective positions than anyone else we have in this country

The point for me is this - if you were a young talented player you want to play in a team which is likely to be challenging for trophies and a team with a flexible enough approach where you can make a difference.

This is a very short career with limited incomes and opportunities

Do you realistically see Leeds challenging for honours anytime soon?

Given the playing rosta do you honestly think the style of play can change; Sinfield has signed a 4 year contract - he is going to be the main playmaker for that period, you cannot radically change his game, so the attack will remain his domain no matter who the personnel around him are.

On Smith - it is like watching a poor man's Gasnier in the effect that the time in RU has had on him - niether are the same player - albeit at differing skill levels - he has lost his pace or the game has got faster and he hasn't.

Very difficult to predict who will be ending up with trophies this year. I would suspect that a player looking to make a career move would not be concerned with the fact that we only made the CC final and the GF semi last year, rather than winning them. Just like Lance Hohaia wasn't bothered that Saints haven't won anything for two years and have lost 4 GF's in a row, being comprehensively duffed by Wigan last year.

Reminds me of [url=http://viewtopic.php?f=17&t=409833this[/url

I doubt Hohaia would have signed for Saints if he didn't think they had the potential to be challenging - something they have consistently shown since the inception of SL and something they are continuing to show.

They also have a crop of very talented youngsters which will make up the core of their squad for the future - there has to reasons that the likes of LMS and Shenton chose Saints? Look at their overseas players they tend to be less but higher standard

It is a club that appears to be investing in a new stadium not cost cutting on revamping a stand etc

Lets not kid ourselves here Sal.

Your argument on kids is a valid and correct one. They do want to be where they have a chance of success, and certainly the way it looks at the moment the opportunities we are looking to create for our new breed of players is not as good as the one we had from 2002.

Your argument about Hohaia though is just taking the micky. Players of his sort from overseas come over for the money first and foremost, nothing else. Had Crusaders offered the player more than Saints then he would have been there instead.

Why?

I thought Shenton was an above average player at Cas and I've seen nothing at Saints yet to show he's elevated his game much beyond that.

Smith, on the other hand, has shown greatness and has fantastic utility value.

IF it was a choice between the two then I think they made the right choice.

My gut feeling is that Leeds won't challenge consistently until we next produce quality players at 6 and 7 and possibly 9. This isn't a criticism of McGuire & Burrow, just a feeling that they aren't players to rebuild a team around.

Could you kindly define... "as much as we can afford to"?

Pre or post shareholder profit? Pre or post ground development? Pre or post saving for a tax bill?

If we're borrowing money to pay for the South Stand, then the business is in debt, and thus paying interest on said debt, and thus could EASILY justify, to anybody with any remote sense of any business understanding, that the amount they can "afford" to spend on players is zero.

I think people so easily forget sport is a business. We're not talking about Abramovich or Mansour bin Zayed Al Nahyan playing with lose change to win trophies for kicks.

GH doesn't wake up every morning and think... "How can I win my next trophy? I shall stop at nothing, and spare no expense to win that shiny trophy! Think of the glory!", he thinks... "How can I make my next pound!", and rightly so. The fact that all his "customers" are thinking about the glory I'm sure is more of a hindrance than a help.

Don't get me wrong, I'm sure GH wants us to be a successful team, not for the glory, pride or shiny trophy, but because that happens to be where the money is. He certainly will not be going for the win, 'no matter what the cost' as many seem to expect.

You could still do one at a time though rather than both at same time.

But I agree with you that half back area is a key area we need to plan to change.

Well we are going to have to make an allowance in the budget somewhere to spend on the team. It's all very well investing coroprate boxes, new stands and the like, but if we don't have a team capable of producing the rugby that the fans desire, the fans won't spend money within the club anymore. St Helens are hardly in the best financial postition, they're even in the process of building a whole new stadium, yet have announced the signing of a world cup winner and last season signed a two current england internationals. They have made allowances to balance out the business and playing side, and at the moment we don't seem to be investing in the playing side adequately

Criticising our recruitment is one thing, using St Helens as a yardstick is another. They've spent big, won sod all and their crowds were on the wane long before taking tenancy at Widnes.

Okay, put it this way, would you rather have signed:

Cross, Huaraki and Delaney over Shenton, LMS and Soliola? I know which three I would have rather seen us sign.

I don't get too thrilled by any signing until they actually achieve something. I used to, but I've seen so many fail to deliver (and not just for us) that I'm not really that fussed now tbh. For every Ali there's an Eastwood as far as I'm concerned.

Look,

Saints have lost 4 Grand Finals in a row, and lost out in the last two CCs too (which is normally a formality). They board need to get the fans back on side.

Leeds on the other hand, 3 in a row, and a CC Final, I'd like to think our board had a little more time on its side before it started losing the trust of the fans, although it would appear I'd be massively wrong.

Absolute rubbish.

Well you do know a lot about that. So probably bet you explain then.

You seriously think a professional and ambitious player Hohaia would rather play for Crusaders than Saints for the sake of a few quid? You're in a dream world mate.

I think he has a point. These lads are professional. They're not coming half way around the world, uprooting their family and playing in an inferior competition for any reason other than financial.

Its absolutely true, and ridiculous to call it rubbish. Every overseas player who comes over in their later career is looking for the biggest offer they can get. Not to say they will not be value for that money, but that is their primary motive.