That Leeds are still producing plenty of youngsters to SL quality. Its not a bad thing that players like Broughton, Ratu and Gibson had to move on because we had better options in Watkins and Hall

i would have thought it common-sense that there would be a drop off after the class of 2001-2003. It would have been nigh on impossible for us to bring through the same amount again, simply because those places were already taken. We were never going to bring through another batch of youngsters to that level in the next generation. Thats not to say we didnt have other players. Lads like Murrell, Scruton, Fox and Golden were still brought through, they just werent as good as the players we already have who were only 2 years or so older and still themselves developing.

I haven't paid much attention to the Academy sides in recent years and at first glance the decline does seem worrying.

I assume the club are aware of this, hence signing players like Coady, Amor, Pitts etc.

That said, given the make up of the 1st team and the three to four year shelf life this side have left together we don't need a massive crop, we just need one or two to break through each year, which has been happening.

Could it be that youngsters see their paths to 1st team rugby blocked for a number of years by relatively young established players like McGuire, Burrow etc hence they go elsewhere. That is why McNally chose the Giants (not that it is working out for him) and why the likes of Murrell moved on.

perhaps we've been victims of our own success a bit.

That said, the young Burgess twins hated it here and were desperate to get to Bradford once they'd served their scholarships so I wonder why that is?

Low self esteem ?
Lack of ambition ?
A desire to be the big fish in a small pond ?

I think that sums it up just about bang on G although i didn't know that the junior Burgess' hated it here.
Do you think it's a "jobs for the boys" culture in the staff set up?
I personally aren't convinced and like i posted elsewhere just because the teams aren't sweeping all before them it doesn't mean we won't get any quality youngsters out of them imo.

As stated earlier, when we were an average (regular Play-off) side, we used to cling onto small sucesses. A big win, the sucesss of the acadamy, having the highest attendance.

Now that we're the most successful SL side of the 21st centuary I couldn't care less.

For me, a SL team has a squad of 25 players with a couple of extra low earners thrown in.

With a career length of 10-15 years, you'll want you acadamy to provide 2-3 first team players in 2 years. Leeds have done this successfully since the bumper crop came through in 2001-2002.

For an acadamy its quality not quantity. Qnatity wins Acadamy leagues. Quality wins SL titles.

Put it another way, go back to years 2000 to 2005 and Leeds were continually announcing new junior signings, and proclaiming them the best around. And they were not lying, Leeds continually picked up the best.

Do you see any of those announcements over the last 4 years? reason been, Leeds are not picking up the best junior talent around. The players are instead choosing to join Cas, Wakey, Bradford. There is a reason for that.

Leeds are instead on a lot of occasions now picking up players at 18/19 who were never picked up first time around, or rejected from other academies.

The success we had was built on a great junior set up, picking up the best players around and developing them well. Well enough that they were pushing for 1st team by 17, not 21. We don't see that now.

What Gareth put above may well be a point. That youngsters see a successfull fist team that may well stay together for longer still, and felt no way of breaking into it. That for me though is a wrong message for these players. They should be offered the chance that if they are good enough then they will break in, regardless how successfull this current crop have been.

Are players not patient enough these days? Or does it depend on position?

The likes of Scruton, JJB and Ablett all had to wait quite a long time to break into the first team, and establish themselves. All are forwards.

Backs tend to break in a lot earlier,a nd if not made it by 21 or 22 then are written off

Scruton and JJB played at 17 Leicester, Ablett at 19. Ablett was a different case because they had not pin pointed his position, which was ideally at the time at 13.

The message I keep hearing around the junior leagues from young players is that Leeds have put a much resented system in place, where the development plan is to be ready for first team by about the age of 20.

It is a short career for these players, and many players, and some are absolutely right, feel they could be playing much younger, and therefore earning money before the age of 20. Therefore they feel their needs are best served elsewhere.

Of course if you really stand out, surely a club is not going to hold you back. But the message portrayed at the moment, so these kids are understanding it, is that you will be.

You sort of back up what I was saying re Scruton, JJB and Ablett. Debuted at 17 & 19, but only forced their way in 3 or 4 years later.

I can see what you're saying about the age that people are being phased in, both at Leeds and at other clubs, and 20/21 seems quite late, but it doesn't necessarily hold that given players generally retire at 32-34, starting them off at 17 gives them an extra 4 years. If they are not physically up to the demands of a very tough Sl competition, they could be broken by their mid 20s.

Maybe the Leeds coaching and medical staff know better about how a 17 year old can cope with Super League Rugby week in week out than the said 17 year old kid with the world at his feet.

And the coaches at other clubs don't know?

Lets not forget that Bastien took a few with him to Wire and by the clubs own admission the new format at that level forced them to realease players early who they would of liked to given another yr at u21 level.

How many 17 year olds are playing regularly in SL again?

The club has let a fair amount of talent slip from its coaching structure in recent years that were responsible for developing the crop of juniors which came through between 2000-2003. Have the likes of Stuart Wilkinson, Brian McDermott and John Bastian been adequately replaced?

Doesn't that apply to all clubs though?

Wigan now have six players out on loan
Ainscough and Tuson at Castleford
Davies and Farrell at Widnes
Holland and Walker at Blackpool.

The reserve team concept is not working, the competition is weak, and I've been saying it for years. I think we're going to have to go to a feeder club system, but getting the lower division clubs to buy into it will be difficult.

The other thing I am in total disagreement with is this non competitive U18 academy Who's bright idea was that?

No they haven't, which is exactly my point earlier.

I am not convinced however that Bastian played that big a part for us anyway. It was before him that we really benefited from.

I don't know who put in this silly "pigeon hole" that players are not ready until 19/20, or if it is as rigid as junior thinks, but it needs to be put aside if true. If they did that then I think we can go back to capturing the best talent around, which we are not doing at the moment.

Player development pathways are a good idea, it's ok to set a series of goals for young players to achieve which might include making x number of first team appearances by a particular age.

The problem comes when the pathway drives the development of the player rather than the other way around.

We are discussing Leeds acadamy are we not?
The club clearly stated that they'd of held onto a few of the players for at least another yr had the new system not come into play.
We too have players loaned out/dual registered.
AFIK the u18 concept was decided by the RFL and the clubs i too agree it's a silly concept.
Just because the junior teams are getting hammered it doesn't mean we won't produce quality players from them.
Do you think that it means the junior Wigan teams will all start their 1st team careers at once and be the new SL squad in a couple of yrs because they are hammering other teams?

Rogues, a couple of points on what I think is going wrong at Leeds at junior levels. We've been blessed with lots of talent coming through over the last 10 years, spoiled even. Every once in a while you will get a drop in talent available in the service area. I also think that other clubs are investing more heavily in youth development, which is good for the game, but we are no longer able to offer young players more incentives to come to Leeds, like perhaps we could 10 years ago when we were investing more than everyone else.

We've also lost our chief scout to Warrington, who was very influential in not just the scouting of young players, but also convincing them or their parents that Leeds is the club for them. There probably is a 'jobs for the old boys' culture at the club, is that to blame for the lack of results at academy level? Who knows. This club has just won 3 grand finals on the bounce so something must be going right behind the scenes, don't let our slow start to this season cloud that.

About our players, no they don't because they don't get day to day access to them.

Look at the Way Tomkins was handled last year. Look at the way Eastmond has been groomed into action at Saints over the past 3 seasons.

Yes, but that was down to Nobby - the rest of the world could see he was better than Smith.

Any more news on young Liam, by the way? Always worrying to see a youngster stretchered off like that.

Thank you. A well reasoned response.
I know I referred to results, but I was alluding as much to performance. Last year there were lads in your side (U1icon_cool.gif who made decent breaks but couldn't pass the ball properly. The passing of a ball is fundamental to RL, but it was painful to watch. I was speaking to a couple of fans (I presume they were parents of one of the players) and they were scathing of the whole junior coaching set up.

Yes I'm a Wigan fan but I'M a rugby league fan. I look forward to watching really good young players progressing. Rhys Evans at Warrington looks really good as does Lee Gaskell at Saints. Josh Charnley and Stefan Marsh at Wigan are exciting talents (Charnley IMO is already a better prospect than Ainscough)

I remember, McGuire, Burrow and Bailey coming through. I remember Bailey and Hock getting stuck in to the Aussie schoolboys when we beat them twice in two games.

As I said originally it wasn't a pop at Leeds more of wanting to know why things have changed so drastically.

Thanks for your reply.

It's a shame that it took an antagonistic post from me to tease it out if them but we got there in the end.

Here's a little tip for the future, if you want a reasoned answer from some of us (yes, even me), then try not making your original post some thinly-disguised gloat.

we have quality youngsters allready at un 18s , that friendly v warrington was against a side without 5 internationals , as the un18s have 5 internationls in the squad and not one of them played ,3 played 20s two days before , and two who are injured , so with all 5 playing at there own age un18s, im sure fore a fact they will not be wipping boys , there is only wigan with 6 un18 internationals so leeds are only one player behind them !