That's just the sort of comment I would have expected from you. Wrong on all counts with a hint of bitter envy. P

I do not have a winter fuel allowance (despite paying into the system for a full working life and never taking any benefits) I do not live in Murcia and I am not and never voted for UKIP. I do have connections to the impact of the vote with a son and daughter and two grandchildren living in the UK and one day I will return to my beloved Yorkshire. Also I still have two UK companies that pay taxes.

Most expats will have voted to remain as they fear they will lose their free healthcare (paid for by the UK government) In my case and in my opinion I have put my children and grand children above potential personal loses because I really believe their future is best served by the UK taking back it's democratic control.

Although the economy and immigration are important issues I think the crucial one is democracy. I have been an internationalist for most of my life and have lived and worked abroad several times in different cultures. Part of this time has been living and working in Spain where I have witnessed the terrible consequences of their membership of the Euro currency and the EU policies that have brought about huge unemployment which is around 50% for young people. IMO the risks of staying in the EU are far higher than the risks of leaving. We have neighbours from Spain, Germany, The Netherlands, Norway, Belgium, Sweden and Denmark and with the odd exception they report that there is similar serious unhappiness in their countries regarding the ongoing EU failures to deal with the important issues of the day.

Quote ="craigizzard"More eloquent than me. www.jkrowling.com/en_GB/#/timeli ... referendum'" Why are you impressed by the opinions of celebrities?

Quote ="craigizzard"More eloquent than me. www.jkrowling.com/en_GB/#/timeli ... referendum'" Why are you impressed by the opinions of celebrities?

Why aren't you accepting of the views of experts?

Which experts are you talking about? Still Eddie Izzard?

that weren't me.

But take your pick of which experts. Almost all of them say similar things.

The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable. Economic forecasting should be taken for the shot in the dark it has proved itself to be through the history of the "science". It's very difficult to really predict anything, especially as nothing like this has happened before. www.ft.com/cms/s/2/14e323ee-e602 ... abdc0.html Of course the markets can react how they want, it's emotionally driven in many ways. If they want to fulfill their own prophecies they are perfectly capable of doing that. Nobody had to panic but they could. A real risk.

The only function of economic forecasting is to make astrology look respectable. Economic forecasting should be taken for the shot in the dark it has proved itself to be through the history of the "science". It's very difficult to really predict anything, especially as nothing like this has happened before. www.ft.com/cms/s/2/14e323ee-e602 ... abdc0.html Of course the markets can react how they want, it's emotionally driven in many ways. If they want to fulfill their own prophecies they are perfectly capable of doing that. Nobody had to panic but they could. A real risk.

It's funny how many things become 'unknowable' when those with the most information disagree with you.

BTW the 2008 crash and subsequent troubles weren't down to economic forces. It was fraud upon fraud upon fraud upon fraud.

Why don't you look into the history of how accurate economic forecasting has been.
And what no economist has is any example of a country leaving the EU, let alone one with the size of economy that we have to base any predictions on.
They're guessing. The problem is the financial markets can be a self fulfilling prophecy because a huge element is emotional. So, yes, there is a strong chance of a downturn based just on fear of the unknown.

There are dozens of articles I could have linked to, Juan - none of which will have made a difference to you, most of them written by dreaded "experts" - that was just the one that happened to have been published at a that particular time.

And I'm not impressed by her views as a "celebrity". I'm impressed by them as a citizen and a human being, which is more than I could say for some.

Pretty fair summing up of the outpourings of chairman craigizzard (must be related to that other oddball Eddie) He is obsessed with Nigel Farage and my swimming pool. Somebody tell him that NF is not part of the official vote leave take control campaign.

Quote ="Juan Cornetto"Pretty fair summing up of the outpourings of chairman craigizzard (must be related to that other oddball Eddie) He is obsessed with Nigel Farage and my swimming pool. Somebody tell him that NF is not part of the official vote leave take control campaign. '" 'Chairman' Craig. Ha! So to be an anti-fascist is to be a communist now? I must tell my colleagues who'll be amazed I've been trying to overthrow capitalism under such deep cover for the past couple of decades. Of course the aptly initialed NF is not officially a representative of the Vote Leave campaign. I forget whether he's part of the People's Front Of Leave or the Leaver's People's Front. However you are judged by the company you keep mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/op ... gle.co.uk/ (New York Times. Not to be trusted. Probably Communist. Cohen a suspicious name) and anyway your official flagbearers are Boris Johnson, fighting against an image of Europe he himself created as a Telegraph columnist (indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... bkoHJPBuVZ), along with the least competent ministers - Grayling, Patel, Duncan-Smith - in the government. And these people are supposed to magically transform into capable governors once we "get our power back"? They're the people I'd *least* trust. I'd rather have Brian Mac in charge and that's saying something As for your swimming pool, I hope it provides you with some relief on Friday morning and cools you down when you're thinking up conspiracy theories for why Leave lost.

Quote ="Juan Cornetto"Pretty fair summing up of the outpourings of chairman craigizzard (must be related to that other oddball Eddie) He is obsessed with Nigel Farage and my swimming pool. Somebody tell him that NF is not part of the official vote leave take control campaign. '" 'Chairman' Craig. Ha! So to be an anti-fascist is to be a communist now? I must tell my colleagues who'll be amazed I've been trying to overthrow capitalism under such deep cover for the past couple of decades. Of course the aptly initialed NF is not officially a representative of the Vote Leave campaign. I forget whether he's part of the People's Front Of Leave or the Leaver's People's Front. However you are judged by the company you keep mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/op ... gle.co.uk/ (New York Times. Not to be trusted. Probably Communist. Cohen a suspicious name) and anyway your official flagbearers are Boris Johnson, fighting against an image of Europe he himself created as a Telegraph columnist (indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... bkoHJPBuVZ), along with the least competent ministers - Grayling, Patel, Duncan-Smith - in the government. And these people are supposed to magically transform into capable governors once we "get our power back"? They're the people I'd *least* trust. I'd rather have Brian Mac in charge and that's saying something As for your swimming pool, I hope it provides you with some relief on Friday morning and cools you down when you're thinking up conspiracy theories for why Leave lost.

I know but it made you laugh though!



Well the so called experts that represent the establishment certainly but none of the independents say the British public will be worse off and they also say any downturn will not last long.

Only the 'experts' from the Remainers campaign headquarters predict doom and gloom with the treasury leading the charge with made up nonsense. Their prediction of recession is based on a model of assuming we losing 50% of our EU trade immediately despite the fact that we will remain in the single market for 2 years at least. It also assumes that we never win any new business from the rest of the world. It also assumes we do not take any action to correct a downturn. In other words rubbish in....rubbish out.

Yet many people just accept these predictions without question. Hence I think the vote to remain will win based on the fear factor and a lack of optimism.

There are dozens of articles I could have linked to, Juan - none of which will have made a difference to you, most of them written by dreaded "experts" - that was just the one that happened to have been published at a that particular time. .'"

Quote ="craigizzard"'Chairman' Craig. Ha! So to be an anti-fascist is to be a communist now? I must tell my colleagues who'll be amazed I've been trying to overthrow capitalism under such deep cover for the past couple of decades. Of course the aptly initialed NF is not officially a representative of the Vote Leave campaign. I forget whether he's part of the People's Front Of Leave or the Leaver's People's Front. However you are judged by the company you keep mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/op ... gle.co.uk/ (New York Times. Not to be trusted. Probably Communist. Cohen a suspicious name) and anyway your official flagbearers are Boris Johnson, fighting against an image of Europe he himself created as a Telegraph columnist (indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... bkoHJPBuVZ), along with the least competent ministers - Grayling, Patel, Duncan-Smith - in the government. And these people are supposed to magically transform into capable governors once we "get our power back"? They're the people I'd *least* trust. I'd rather have Brian Mac in charge and that's saying something As for your swimming pool, I hope it provides you with some relief on Friday morning and cools you down when you're thinking up conspiracy theories for why Leave lost.'" Well the company you are keeping includes call me Dave and Boy George and the creators of the project fear made up nonsense team. You seem more influenced by the personalities than in what they actually say and you seem to spend far too much time on the wrong internet sites. Try the Beano it maybe more accurate. I am under no illusions about the result and have said from the start that the Remainers are favorites as they have enjoyed the whole weight and backing of the government machine with the civil service denying freedom of information questions from the leave campaign. But I am an optimist and hope that sufficient free thinking people will turn out for the Leavers. It could all depend on the turn out. Whoever wins we are having a party with our neighbours. Our place if we vote leave and a friend's if we vote remain. Either way I will accept it.

Quote ="craigizzard"'Chairman' Craig. Ha! So to be an anti-fascist is to be a communist now? I must tell my colleagues who'll be amazed I've been trying to overthrow capitalism under such deep cover for the past couple of decades. Of course the aptly initialed NF is not officially a representative of the Vote Leave campaign. I forget whether he's part of the People's Front Of Leave or the Leaver's People's Front. However you are judged by the company you keep mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/21/op ... gle.co.uk/ (New York Times. Not to be trusted. Probably Communist. Cohen a suspicious name) and anyway your official flagbearers are Boris Johnson, fighting against an image of Europe he himself created as a Telegraph columnist (indy100.independent.co.uk/articl ... bkoHJPBuVZ), along with the least competent ministers - Grayling, Patel, Duncan-Smith - in the government. And these people are supposed to magically transform into capable governors once we "get our power back"? They're the people I'd *least* trust. I'd rather have Brian Mac in charge and that's saying something As for your swimming pool, I hope it provides you with some relief on Friday morning and cools you down when you're thinking up conspiracy theories for why Leave lost.'" Well the company you are keeping includes call me Dave and Boy George and the creators of the project fear made up nonsense team. You seem more influenced by the personalities than in what they actually say and you seem to spend far too much time on the wrong internet sites. Try the Beano it maybe more accurate. I am under no illusions about the result and have said from the start that the Remainers are favorites as they have enjoyed the whole weight and backing of the government machine with the civil service denying freedom of information questions from the leave campaign. But I am an optimist and hope that sufficient free thinking people will turn out for the Leavers. It could all depend on the turn out. Whoever wins we are having a party with our neighbours. Our place if we vote leave and a friend's if we vote remain. Either way I will accept it.

No, I was just suggesting you weren't being a particularly impressive one.

Having said that, if I ever find myself in your non-Murcia part of Spain then I'll happily buy you a cerveza and we can talk over each other long into the night. I do find our arguments entertaining, although possibly not in the way you intend.

(As for the articles - I'm on my phone and don't have the bookmarks, but recent good ones include Marina Hyde in the Guardian a few days ago, Anthony Beevor this morning, Martin Fletcher and AA Gill in The Times, the FT's editorials over the last two weeks, the continuing coverage of the WSJ, NYT and Washington Post, or, if you read Spanish, John Carlin in El Pais at the weekend. Search them. If you want expert opinion to ignore it's pretty simple - just put Obama or the IMF or the Bank of England or the name of any big businessman or lender or investor or senior doctor or educationalist into Google along with Brexit and see what you might find.)

Brexit campaign boosted by defection of Baroness Warsi to Remain camp.

Quote ="DHM"Brexit campaign boosted by defection of Baroness Warsi to Remain camp. "Her announcement was greeted with bemusement by Leave campaigners, who said they were not aware that the Muslim peer had ever been a Brexit supporter".'" Whilst I don't care one jot what Sayeeda Warsi thinks, and don't see her defection as any sort of real boost, the reaction to it has been instructive. Plain lies from Brexit campaigners like Daniel Hannan who have actually shared Leave platforms with her, paranoid imaginings that she was some sort of sleeper agent put into the Brexit campaign by Number 10 (because No 10 and Warsi *love* each other...), and the vileness of reaction that has increasingly become the hallmark of a certain sort of Brexiteer (www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/eu-re ... 75796.html)

Quote ="DHM"Brexit campaign boosted by defection of Baroness Warsi to Remain camp. "Her announcement was greeted with bemusement by Leave campaigners, who said they were not aware that the Muslim peer had ever been a Brexit supporter".'" Whilst I don't care one jot what Sayeeda Warsi thinks, and don't see her defection as any sort of real boost, the reaction to it has been instructive. Plain lies from Brexit campaigners like Daniel Hannan who have actually shared Leave platforms with her, paranoid imaginings that she was some sort of sleeper agent put into the Brexit campaign by Number 10 (because No 10 and Warsi *love* each other...), and the vileness of reaction that has increasingly become the hallmark of a certain sort of Brexiteer (www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/eu-re ... 75796.html)

Quote ="craigizzard"Whilst I don't care one jot what Sayeeda Warsi thinks, and don't see her defection as any sort of real boost, the reaction to it has been instructive. Plain lies from Brexit campaigners like Daniel Hannan who have actually shared Leave platforms with her, paranoid imaginings that she was some sort of sleeper agent put into the Brexit campaign by Number 10 (because No 10 and Warsi *love* each other...), and the vileness of reaction that has increasingly become the hallmark of a certain sort of Brexiteer (www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/eu-re ... 75796.html)'" The internet and twitter in general is full of nice people, had my share from UKIPers on Twitter in the past - been called a traitor and a "lefty bigot" (whatever the f*** that is). Worse if you happen to be a woman as well. However, if someone had simply said, "Self promoting brainless gasbag looks for publicity by jumping to side now ahead in polls", then fair enough. But I can't really take much notice of what anyone is saying in the media at the moment from either camp, still if we leave I'll be looking forward to Osbournes emergency budget of doom, www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36534192, the end of western civilization, www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ation.html closely followed by a total security collapse www.presstv.ir/Detail/2016/06/15 ... ato-poland and of course the Apocalypse.

Quote ="craigizzard"Whilst I don't care one jot what Sayeeda Warsi thinks, and don't see her defection as any sort of real boost, the reaction to it has been instructive. Plain lies from Brexit campaigners like Daniel Hannan who have actually shared Leave platforms with her, paranoid imaginings that she was some sort of sleeper agent put into the Brexit campaign by Number 10 (because No 10 and Warsi *love* each other...), and the vileness of reaction that has increasingly become the hallmark of a certain sort of Brexiteer (www.standard.co.uk/news/uk/eu-re ... 75796.html)'" The internet and twitter in general is full of nice people, had my share from UKIPers on Twitter in the past - been called a traitor and a "lefty bigot" (whatever the f*** that is). Worse if you happen to be a woman as well. However, if someone had simply said, "Self promoting brainless gasbag looks for publicity by jumping to side now ahead in polls", then fair enough. But I can't really take much notice of what anyone is saying in the media at the moment from either camp, still if we leave I'll be looking forward to Osbournes emergency budget of doom, www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-e ... m-36534192, the end of western civilization, www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... ation.html closely followed by a total security collapse www.presstv.ir/Detail/2016/06/15 ... ato-poland and of course the Apocalypse.

IIRC, Juan used to think the IFS were a fair arbiter - perhaps he still does.

What was their Brexit cost analysis for the last year of this parliament (the year of the long awaited mythical Gideon surplus) between minus £20,000,000,000 and minus £40,000,000,000 ?

So just so we are clear. You think that the following are experts in the UK economy: AA Gill (food and tv critic) Obama (lame duck US President) the IMF (Paris based outfit who had to apologise to UK for getting their economic predictions for UK so badly wrong) outgoing Bank of England boss with an awful record of forecasting interest rate changes (was Osborne appointee ex Goldman Sax banker and likely returnee to a leading economic crash bank) and various hacks from the media. Also why would a doctor or educationalist know anything more than even you with regard to the UK economy or business. Just surprised you didn't name Desparate Dan too.

Here are somes names of UK big business men for you to google. Sir James Dyson (Dyson) Sir Anthony Bamford (JCB) Joe Foster (Reebock) John Cauldwell (Phones4U) Nigel Wilson (Legal & General) John Timpson (Timpsons)

Well, obviously we're not clear, Juan. You asked for links to opinions, I gave you a few articles - some expert, some just good - and then walked you through how to find others. Meanwhile thanks for letting me know some of the 2% of wealth creators who'll be voting Leave.

And the doctors and educationalists were not pointed to as experts in the economy, rather as experts gauging the effects of Brexit in the health service, universities, research and innovation. Which do have relevance to the economy, but are also important in themselves.

And Desperate Dan was in The Dandy not The Beano. Do try to keep consistent.

ok, but you google Rory Harvey (Vauxhall), Richard Branson (Virgin), Ivan Menezes (diageo), Vincent de Rivaz (EDF), Sir Michael Rake (BT) Paul Kahn (airbus UK), Andy Clarke (asda) Pascal Soriot (astrazeneca) Peter Rogers (Babcock), Sir Roger Car (bae systems), James Farley(ford europe) Sir Andrew Witty (GSK), Richard John Carter (BASF), Andrew McKenzie (BHP Billiton) Bob Dudley (BP), Ralf Speth (Jaguar Land Rover), Vereonique Lowry (kingfisher), John Nelson (lloyds of london), Mike Wells (prudential) Jan du plessis (rio tinto), Warren East (rolls royce) Michael O'leary (ryanair) Alan Clark (SABmiller) Dido Harding (talktalk), Nathan Bostock (Santander), Bill Winters (standard Chartered) Roman Dunne (O2) Paul Polman (Unilever), Vittorio Colao (Vodafone) Sir Martin Sorrell (WPP) Antonio Horta-Ossario (lloyds bank) Marc Bolland (marks and Spencer) Rick Haythornethwaite (Mastercard) Chistopher Bailey (burberry) Keith Cochcrane (weir group)

No I did not ask for links to opinions Eddie. I said I would be happy to respond to the dreaded experts you spoke of. You just gave me a list of articles and stated most were written by experts. I have pointed out that most were not written by experts just celebrities. The only so called experts all had serious flaws in their record of predictions hence I why their opinions are flawed.

How does anyone know what effect a Brexit would have on the health service or universities etc? This is pure speculation. And why would a doctor know any more than you about the economic effect and how would they have time to study this as I thought they say they work 70 hours a week. I guess some of these think they may lose their EU funding and fail to realise this is really our taxpayers money part returned anyway.

With regard to the Dandy I thought you should broaden your reading.

I am not doubting the number of bankers and fat cats that wish the status quo to remain as they and their 35,000 lobbyists in Brussels persude the unelected EU commissioners to fix the rules in their favour. This is at the heart of the problem. Vote Leave and claim back our soverienty before it is too late. You will live to regret it if you don't.

Juan, if I wanted to get into endless arguments with someone who deliberately gets the wrong end of the stick, takes words out of context, ignores the substance, twists to suit and runs with it to god knows where, then I'd talk more to my wife.