Is he a denominator in the period of success that saw Leeds win two Grand Finals under their new coach, achieved after regular season finishes of first and second rather than fifth and fifth?

The "former champions who had lost the plot" then finished fourth in the regular season, were runners up at Wembley, and fell one match from the grand final despite being without their two best-performing players of the time.

I await your judgement of how much the plot has been lost should any or all of these benchmarks not be achieved in Brian McDermott's third season.

Maybe the title was a tougher proposition between 2004-2006 than it was later, i.e the opposition was better? That could've influenced the relative success under Smith.

The way I see it Powell built the side and made them into contenders. Smith made them winners. But no side wins all the competitions all the time. Despite not doing much in 2005 and 2006 you still made one GF and won a WCC. Since then the team has gone on and dominated SL, nobody has really come close to consistently matching Leeds when it matters. Losing the plot???

I think this post has been misinterpreted. It just lacks one colon and it starts to make sense. Observe...



Otherwise it's just a post that's not self-consistent and even if you unpick the contorted metaphors, seems to end in a theory that isn't supported by even existing facts.

From somebody usually quite keen on stats and evidence, this scans as hyperbole really. Is the claim that Leeds haven't been coached since 2007 something you can actually justify?

I have no intention of getting into a debate on the relative merits of Smith and McDermott. They arrived at very differnet times in the club's development to do very different jobs. I would still make a case myself for Smith being the better coach in that context, but it's a big leap from there to dismissing any coaching role from 2 pretty successful successors.

Yes turned them into champions....he then turned them back into underachievers, before getting it right on GF night '07, something McDermott does and is criticised still.

The way people paint it is that whoever took over after Smith COULDN'T fail, when they so easily could've. At the start of 2008 he left behind a squad still deemed 2nd best to Saints (as shown by the LLS and CC Semi). Over time McClellan installed a fight in them that Smith couldn't and did what he couldn't....finish above a competitive and strong Saints team in the league table.

People might be waiting for McDermott to achieve something with 'his own side'.....well I'm waiting for Smith to go somewhere without the luxury of big signings and 'do it tough'......but in reality he'll probably end up at Salford if Koukash can deliver on big signings. No coach since the beginning of 2004 has been given more luxury in terms of player recruitment yet he's only won 2 out of a possible 7 GF's.

As for the culture HE introduced, are we going to forget the roles Dean Bell, Darryl Powell & GH played in it before Smith even arrived. Smith praised for his ruthlessness, yet who went out and got him and ditched Powell in possibly the most ruthless move at the club over the last decade?

I reckon quite a few coaches could've come and achieved the same amount as Smith over those 4 years, whether it be they had to wait until the latter years to pick up the chunk of the 5 titles Smith managed. I think less coaches could've won the GF back to back in the last 2 years (even if they finished higher in the table), certainly not Smith who has failed in 3 straight attempts with Wire even though they play the better rugby and finished higher in the league. If coming into a new club at the right time and moulding them into GF winners is Smith's quality....then why hasn't he done it at Wire? He again has been 'given' the resources to do so. The last 2 occasions his Harlem Globetrotters haven't been able to beat The Idiot and his OAP's. Is it because of the vast playoff experience Leeds have?......Well so did Bradford in the 2004. The personalities and characters of the likes of Sinfield, JJB and Peacock, so key to our success weren't moulded by Smith.

Any news on Watkins injury yet

I wouldn't have thought so but sometimes I like to post in a whimsical manner, not expecting it to be taken entirely seriously.

That said I see what McDermott is doing and I'm not finding it an attractive proposition at this point in the season. The goal-line defence is particularly concerning where players seem incapable of working consistently as a unit for a full set of six and are often found wandering around doing their own thing. This becomes doubly frustrating up at the other end of the field when opponents simply refuse to open up like the Red Sea and Leeds have to actually earn their scores by passing the ball to Watkins which usually results in a difficult conversion attempt.

Sky sports app mentions that he will be out for AT LEAST 8 weeks, but doesn't mention what the injury is

Smiths reign was abit of a strange one.

For the first 18 months everything was the dogs bollox. But then things went west and weren't recovered until just before he left. There was alot of frustration and mediocrity sandwiched between those 2 sl wins. Remember blowing the treble in 2005? CC semi defeat to an average hudds in 2006? Or the playoff defeat at home to at the time an average warrington?

Smith's quality is producing teams that go out and play entertaining football - that entertainment more often than not results in winning rugby, which can in turn lead to trophies but not always inevitably in every competition as that would be unrealistic.

Warrington had won nothing of note for a long, long time prior to Smith replacing Lowes in March 2009. They'd got off to a disastrous start as Lowes imploded under the pressure - the televised shocker at home to Les Catalans (20 - 40), humiliation at Wakefield in round 3 (48 - 22) even Leeds managed to get out of Warrington with a win in Smith's first game in charge (12 - 20). The effort to impress the new boss backfired a week later with the nadir of the season at the Stoop (60 - 8 ) ending the opening five rounds plum last on the table without a win or a sign of a win in sight. Smith had to take Warrington apart in season and start from first basics. What followed was an up and down season but he'd got into the culture of the club and begun to overhaul it. He set the lead, you either followed it or you were gone. Warrington before Smith arrived had been a six to eight finishing team in recent seasons capable of beating the best and equally capable of losing to the worst the league had to offer.

Historically no Championship for a staggering 54 years and while they're still waiting they're finally contenders again, having also won a LLS and broke out of the mid-table non-descripts and into being one of the contenders. Smith took them backwards (helped by Lowes' awful start) to propel them forwards as they went from finishing 6th to 10th to 3rd to 1st to 2nd. Meanwhile in the Challenge Cup - this time a 35 year wait - won at the first attempt with two more added in the next three seasons.

Smith had won the final trophy open to him in the domestic game with Leeds and returned after an 18 month gap as the International supremo to win the next one available to him this time with Warrington. He turned Leeds from nearly men to winners in under a year and he did the same again in his next domestic role - getting two enormous monkeys off the respective club's backs in the process.

I remember us narrowly losing the 2005 GF to a Bulls team including the temporary services of Adrian Morley, a loophole which was quickly closed, but too late for us.

Disgraceful suggestions AGAIN on here that 'anybody' could have coached Leeds to the GF win in 2004. As tvoc explained, that was a massive achievement that no Leeds team had come near since the early 70s. Smith also replaced more than half the team between the 2005 and 2007 GFs.

Bluey OTOH won both GFs without a single big signing playing a part (Buderus being here but missing the GF). That would suggest that he inherited a quality team, and that if a Leeds team could have been coached by 'anyone' to win GFs, it was the team under Bluey. The fact that he got turfed after one season badly affected by injuries to JP and McGuire suggests that was possibly GH's view as well.

Clearly not as only 4 trophies from a potential 15 at his time at Leeds proves. Quite a quality to win the LLS in 2004 and with his team of Smith-made-Champions only win 3 of the next 13 titles (and 1 of the last 11)......meanwhile the team (Saints) who finished 15pts and 8 defeats behind this new champion team would go on to win 7 of those 11! Similar story after lifting the LLS '11, only 1 success from 6 (and the LLS ain't looking great for them atm) whilst McDermotthas taken 3 of the next 7 since then. Nice pattern emerging here.



Yes Warrington have improved, but hardly surprising when (since they knocked Smith and Leeds out of the '06 playoffs) they've signed Morley, Atkins, Hodgson, King, Anderson brothers, Monaghan brothers, Myler, Ratchford, Waterhouse, Carvell and others. Similar situation as Leeds, the guy above him making the signings deserves a huge chunk of the credit. Granted they've won CC's (helped breaking the trophy draught by facing another team who'd not won anything in ages in the '09 final) but their playoff records shows he still hasn't turned them and the club into 'Champions' even though its his 'speciality'.

Given that he has another 2 years after this one on his contract I would bet he'll win them one GF at least but even 2 from 6 full seasons given his resources would be slightly underachieving, if he only lifts one then massive underachievement.

Quite interesting how he left it so late last year to sign a new contract at Wire, probably waiting to see if another team eager to splash cash was available to him......especially since Wire coincidentally didn't add to their squad in the off season. Quite like how when he left Leeds the big signings dried up, must've gotten the word from GH that players of the likes of Webb, Peacock, Lauitiiti and Ellis weren't going to so regular anymore. Without big signings Smith wanted away and didn't want to build a dynasty. Shows the measure of the man really and it ain't great.

The point made was that McDermott played an important role as Smith's assistant coach in producing a mental toughness and winning mentality in the Champion side that McLennan inherited.




The team McDermott inherited were not Champions. They were badly prepared for the WCC in 2010, they were badly beaten in the Cup final, and were knocked out of the playoffs at home to Wigan 6-26. For much of the season they played poor rugby. If it is an overstatement to say the team had not lost the plot they still had gone backwards or gone off the boil or whatever.


In McDermott's first season he was without 2 of the most influential players for half the time and had an several other first teamers out injured and therefore it took time to bring back the champion ethos. It is to his great credit that he was able to produce the turnaround from 8th place in July and then to a historic Championship win from 5th place and unlucky to be lose the Cup final to Wigan along the way.

In his 2nd season McDermott won the WCC and again reached the Cup Final and against all the odds once again produced a Champion side form the disadvantage of 5th place What many of his critics overlook is that he is working with the same key group of players who are older, slower and past their best and so has a big disadvantage compared to the two former coaches.



Even if Leeds win nothing this year, McDermott will still have a better record of getting to finals than McLennan

I wonder which SL clubs will be clamouring to sign McDermott if and when his tenure at Headingley is over?

There has only been one consistent throughout, Gary Hetherington. The one person that was here prior to the 2004 title, assembling that squad that Smith coaches to the title. The one person that saw the transition through Mclennan and McDermott and the transition in personell.

That person remains in charge today and remains in charge of the transition going forward. Why anybody on here would think they know better than he what the squad needs in the next few years is beyond me.

Comparing different coaches achievements in different periods with different players is not scientific and therefore inconclusive.

I agree with tvoc in that Smith has produced teams that play an expansive attractive game. But like the Printer has pointed out not without some big name signings.

The point that I am trying to get across to McDermotts many critics is that they underestimate his abilities and achievements.

When Smith first went to Huddersfield as coach he lost a record sequence of matches (similar pattern at Warrington) and they finished bottom of the table and were relegated. They gained promotion the following season with McDermott joining as Smiths assistant coach in 2003. The pair then came to Headingley together and together coached us to the Championship in 2004. IMO McDermott made a big contribution to the 2004 championship and in creating the platform for the teams future success and I was fortunate to witness this first hand on several occassions.

Look, here's the thing. Tony Smith did great things at Leeds. Then he left. Things move on. Comparing McDermott to Smith is ot only difficult because of the different situations they inherited, it's also not all that relevant.

Indeed. But let's not forget that GH publicly questioned whether the current squad was up to scratch about this time last year. IIRC he has stated that finishing top or thereabouts was a target for this season.

I don't have a particular axe to grind about McDermott (anymore), but I suspect that GH is not happy for the club to pin everything on another last gasp play-off charge. The WCC loss and early exit from the CC won't have been good for business (compared to better efforts last year), so I wonder what will happen to McDermott's permanent/rolling contract under the circumstances of things not picking up. Or indeed some of our established playing squad.

I don't think so. The team under smith has pretty much reached it's zenith in the last couple of years, that was when they were ''supposed'' to win the grand final, but they didn't even make it in 2011 after being dominant in the regular season and after finally making it, lost last year, both times being thwarted by the apprentice and his OAP's.

They may still have another big playoff series in them but i'm not sure. The team will need rebuilding very shortly with many of their key players pretty much at the end of the line.

I seem to remember than in the disappointment of 2006 people on here were postulating that it was the loss of a certain assistant coach that caused Leeds to fall away, and that a certain head coach had been found out.

In the 4 seasons Brian Mcdermott has spent on the coaching staff at Leeds they have won an LLS, 3 Grand Finals, appeared in 4, and appeared in 3 Challenge Cup Finals. That’s a record that stands on its own as quality, it doesn’t need comparing to Smith, Mclennan or anybody else.

Id also add on the make up/quality of the squad etc, that its important to remember that this is an SC game and that SC is something that doesn’t only need to be planned in to our recruitment for each season in isolation but how this seasons recruitment effects next season. I have no doubt that some these extensions we have seen midway through seasons, especially over the last few years are simply maximising the use of the SC. Take Kirke as an example, whilst in isolation there may be better players and ones which come at a similar price, what the continuation of his contract, as opposed to signing a new player, allows us to do is get better cap value from the same money. If we have say £200k spare this year, and Kirke has a £75k per annum contract, what the renegotiation would allow us to do is get better value by paying him £150k this year, £37.5k next year, and £37.5k the year after. Whilst you may get a similar or even better quality player for £75k a year you almost certainly cant get one for £37.5k which will be Kirke’s cap cost for the next two years. This allows to keep/recruit better quality players. We do that 3 times and that is an extra £107.5k on the cap each year (I don’t know Kirkes wages, those figures are made up to illustrate)

It's an interesting observation, but one that IMO will not be ultimatly brought into question as I believe leeds will recover their league form, huddserfield will falter and leeds will wind up finishing 2nd.

Great recall.

Smith was villified and crucified on here between 2006 and right up to the 2007 GF before he made a lot of posters look silly. Far too much credit was given to Mcdermott by many posters for Smith's successes. probably the same posters now villifying and crucifying McDermott.

Substandard.com is certainly more lively when we're in bad form than good.

This has been an interesting debate, and in truth there is no definitive answer.

Its like trying to say who is the best scientific mind in history. Some say Einstein, some say Newton, some say Gallileo. The truth is that without the work of the people who were there first (who moved things forward so much) they wouldn't have been able to do their job as well as they did.

Powell took a club that had won very little with a very expensive and underperforming squad and dismantled it and threw in the promising youngsters who still form the core of the squad

Smith took a squad with good ability, but massive potential and created a winning culture build upon togetherness. He also played a brand of rugby not seen since.

McClennan took a team of players who had the ability, and the experience of winning and got the best out of them. He didn't need to be the best coach because the players had become used to winning. However, they needed to be made to beleive they would win, and needed to be inspired. Bluey was a people guy, and took a team that would otherwise not have had the hunger and got them to perform again and again.

McDermott came in when it was clear that the lack of structure and boundries were becoming a problem. I think he maintained the spirit and togetherness of the club, whilst re-introducing the structure.

Bringing in Smith when we brought in POwell would unlikely have worked, same for all the other appointments. the key to the coaches wasn't just their skills it was the timing. In a salary caped sport where in theory everyone can spend the same, the real difference maker can be the coach. Get the right coach (Skills, or motivator, or structure provider etc) and the quality group of players you have should be able to compete and win.

Other things that have occurred to me whilst reading this thread:
Before 2008, only Saints had won SL back to back.
Before 2008, no coach had won the SL back to back.
Before 2008, no club had won the WCC and SL in the same calendar year.
Before 2009, no club had won SL 3 times on the bounce.
Bluey and McDermott both achieved #1-3.
Bluey achieved #4. McDermott may still achieve it too

In 2005/6 when McDermott left, and things started to go wrong at Leeds, many on here were suggesting that he was the brains behind Leeds. I have no idea whether he was or not, but people have short memories.

In Smiths tenure we saw very similar baffling decisions in the lineup. Lauiti'iti and JJB at prop, Senior selected at Cardiff, Young players (Scruton, Gibson, Smith etc) not given a good chance in the first team. Cummins played a hell of a lot in 2004, before Calderwood eventually nailled down his place. McDonald & Feather regulars in the team despite performances which make Kirke look impressive. We saw long losing streaks in 2005 and 2006, but what we remember is the nights like 2004 and 2007 at Old Trafford. Smith was not a bad coach, he was an excellent one. But so have the two that have been in the seat since. They were just different.

Comparing coaches is pointless as the variables are too numerous.
Different squads of players - Moon vs Senior
Different ages of players - McGuire 2004 vs McGuire 2013
Different salaries of players
Different level of opposition - top 3 vs top 6
Salary cap relative to NRL and inflation

All three coaches had to work with the situation as it was at the time, and I think all three did a pretty good job, and if the next 3 coaches deliver 2 Sl titles each I'll be pretty happy

In other news I hear that McGuire has broken his fibula.