I guess the point is that the coaching staff are clearly not identifying them as being talented enough to warrant early introduction. Where they have they have been a success (Watkins, Clarkson, Ward).

Just because we know-nowts pick someone out as a talent doesn't mean that they have the full set of tools to make it. There is more to a player than what happens on the pitch in an under 19s game

Perhaps the question should be what more could they have achieved if Buderus had stayed? Would Hood be closer to being ready for the first team than he is now?

And this is where it gets confusing.

Watkins and Clarkson were before McDermotts time. Ward was already identified before McDermotts time.

This is where I form the view that McDermott does not give chances, and is reluctant to do so. That doesn't mean I want a load of kids thrown in not ready. I have just seen nothing at all from McDermott to suggest that he is anything other than scared to change what has been a successfull team, rather than because they are the better option.

Far from not identifying them as being talented, Barry McDermott in contrast has constantly praised certain youngsters, they have been recognized as the best from other coaches, and indeed the national coaches.

Sport is a results business.

Sports coaching is a cuthroat results business. You either get them, or you're gone..

If I was coaching at this level, I'd want to be picking the 17 that gave me the best possible chance of winning every single week.

Remember Wigan taking a much changed team to Widnes last year and getting beat? Imagine the reaction on here if Leeds had done that. There would have been virtual meltdown calling for McDermott's head, irrespective of what experience it might have given the younger players.

Like Keinhorst who you have been less than complimentary about?

Didn't Wigan take a near full team of youngsters to Widnes?

This is where there is confusion on this board. It is either full team of youngsters or non at all, no middle ground. My own point is one of a clearly identified potential star been given a run out of a couple of games in a season, then stepping up over time. That is different to your example Andy.

All of our success has come from players developed the way I am suggesting, in certain cases even earlier than I am saying. It is a proven model and should be stuck to.

Wigan Warriors: Matthew Russell, Anthony Gelling, Darrell Goulding, Jack Hughes, Josh Charnley, Brett Finch, Joe Mellor, Jeff Lima, Michael McIlorum, Lee Mossop, Gareth Hock, Harrison Hansen, Chris Tuson

Subs: Epalahame Lauaki, Tom Spencer, Logan Tomkins, Ben Flower

So hardly a "team full of youngsters". They took a calculated gamble on giving a couple of talented young players some game time and resting old heads. It backfired on them.

Singleton's had "a couple of games" with the first team hasn't he, which seems to fit your criteria? How do those criteria apply to the likes Ward, Keinhorst and Hood under McDermott's reign?

Singleton's doesn't fit my criteria at all.

Development for me would have been, yes he got his debut two seasons ago. Therefore year 2, last season, should have been 4 or 5 games, and year 3 this year he should be looking at half the games. If he wasn't up to from the first game, and by year 2 after a couple of games he still wasn't showing what they saw in him, then you change the development course.

Infact Singleton is nearly an example of what I fear. I think he's gone backwards from what he could have been.

Ward is a perfect example of Sinfield and McGuire before him, and Tomkins at Wigan. He was always going to be a star and they had no choice whatsoever to leave him. These players once given the run out prove they can not be dropped.

Give over with the Keinhorst example, he is not a youngster and I have seen nothing to change my view that he will never make a super league player. That is a perfect example of my reservation on McDermott. Where he has his little own projects he will give it a go, regardless of been as good as others not given that chance.

Hood's development went back as soon as the decision was made to find a place for Burrow at all costs.

So if Singleton wasn't up to it, then his development path needed to be changed?

Pretty much what has happened then?

It;'s this kind of silly rhetorick that causes nobody to take you seriously.
Nobody at the club has ever made a decision "to find a place for Burrow" at all costs.

The current coach decided to mix and match Burrow between 9 and 7 during the 2011 season. It has achieved remarkable success. In fact, it was so successful that Burrow earned a Harry Sunderland award in that role in the 2011 Grand Final.

At this stage, Liam Hood still hadn't made his 1st team debut.

Hood was slowly introduced at the start of last year and after a particularly harrowing defensive display at home to Huddersfield was sent on loan to further develop and the club decided neither were ready and brought in Lunt on loan. Hood and McShane have been given opportunities for a role. There remain question marks over both.

Meanwhile, Rob Burrow remains a game breaker and an integral part of an unheralded era of success.

As someone said, it's very obvious with most young players, whether they're going to be "stars". It was obvious with Burrow. It's not obvious at all with either McShane or Hood.

You have to acknowledge that the context for introducing players isn't constant though. Bringing in the likes of Sinfield, Burrow, McGuire, Calderwood, Mathers, Walker et al. into a pretty unsuccessful side was probably a far more straightforward decision than it would have been to parachute them en masse into a side that's won five grand finals in six years. Everyone wants to see exciting young talent emerging but there are going to be periods when for some it takes time and for others it means a move if they want to play first grade. To do it any other way would be irrational IMO.

Did Sam Tomkins only make his debut due to Tim Smith being injured

Thank you for pointing that out. You are absolutely correct. Why was that? because he was held back against all advice from around the game, and as soon as given his shot he takes it.

Held back by a coach with a reputation for not going for youngsters. That is exactly what McDermott reminds me of, straight out of the Brian Noble school of coaching.

That's a little different to how you described it above.

Not true, when Tim Smith went down injured, Sam had played as many first team games as Smith. It's a common misconception, perpetrated by the idiots on SKY TV

Quote ="Tony Soprano"Did Sam Tomkins only make his debut due to Tim Smith being injured'" No. wigan.rlfans.com/fusion_pages/in ... ge_id=1509 And remember Sam missed two games because he was "invited to travel" with the England squad to France to gain experience of being around an International squad.

Quote ="Tony Soprano"Did Sam Tomkins only make his debut due to Tim Smith being injured'" No. wigan.rlfans.com/fusion_pages/in ... ge_id=1509 And remember Sam missed two games because he was "invited to travel" with the England squad to France to gain experience of being around an International squad.

Thank the gods

Lol

Seriously I do wish others wouldn't purport to speak on my behalf or express my interpreted wishes.

I have only suggested Jimmy Watson could be ready to step up after some recent apparent impressive and confident performances.

If it is still felt he is not ready to play FB over the next three games does he not then deserve a spot on the right wing over the present apparent Aussie incumbent? Depends who is considered better for the long term future of the club I guess and assume ????!!???

So what would be your reasons for playing Watson instead of Vickery? Why would he be a better option and what has Vickery done to deserve being dropped? His nationality and age have no bearing in my eyes so I'm interested to see what you think.

Not dropped...rotated



Ok I'll humour you. Watson deserves a promotion to the first team; Vickery is our new Smith-like-utility player, so you could utilise all three of Watkins, Watson AND Vickery in the 1/2/3 positions......AND move Ablett back into the forwards.

For me, it's pretty unlikely that the response to any short-term injury dilemma will have much effect on the long term future of the club. It could give a player an odd, extra game under their belt but realistically would this make much difference to their development?

It could also be argued what has Vickery done to deserve selection - certainly nothing on the field.

I think Watson is ready, with the lack of confidence on Boxing Day I had my doubts; but we are all entitled to be nervous once in a while, and he did score a try that day.
I have been watching Hunslet each week (and for those who care I have become a Rhinos/Hunslet Season Ticket holder). Watson has been smashing it. I hope the highlights come out soon against Fev and you will see the work he went through that day. 25 carries in his first game from FB and 9 tackles (one-on-one) last week.

I think its a shame they haven't at least put him on the wing by now. Just 18 months ago Watson was in front of Hardaker in the pecking order for the U20s. So its all about being given a go and a bit of luck with injuries.
I really do believe he can be a star in Super League if not for Leeds some other team, but he just needs game time. He will bulk up in the next year or so as its about 22 years when you start to put the timber on. But as he is in the last year of his contract and Leeds don't change their 19 around, I guess it might be some other team who will see his best years.

Quote ="W55ARE"I think Watson is ready, with the lack of confidence on Boxing Day I had my doubts; but we are all entitled to be nervous once in a while, and he did score a try that day. I have been watching Hunslet each week (and for those who care I have become a Rhinos/Hunslet Season Ticket holder). Watson has been smashing it. I hope the highlights come out soon against Fev and you will see the work he went through that day. 25 carries in his first game from FB and 9 tackles (one-on-one) last week. I think its a shame they haven't at least put him on the wing by now. Just 18 months ago Watson was in front of Hardaker in the pecking order for the U20s. So its all about being given a go and a bit of luck with injuries. I really do believe he can be a star in Super League if not for Leeds some other team, but he just needs game time. He will bulk up in the next year or so as its about 22 years when you start to put the timber on. But as he is in the last year of his contract and Leeds don't change their 19 around, I guess it might be some other team who will see his best years.'" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Moh-duKohug Watson makes some good cover tackles, especially one in the corner and gets a try Hood looked to move well from Hooker, try and a nice break can be seen Keinhorst makes a nice offload for a try in the corner Chisholm looks to have but on some good timber

Quote ="W55ARE"I think Watson is ready, with the lack of confidence on Boxing Day I had my doubts; but we are all entitled to be nervous once in a while, and he did score a try that day. I have been watching Hunslet each week (and for those who care I have become a Rhinos/Hunslet Season Ticket holder). Watson has been smashing it. I hope the highlights come out soon against Fev and you will see the work he went through that day. 25 carries in his first game from FB and 9 tackles (one-on-one) last week. I think its a shame they haven't at least put him on the wing by now. Just 18 months ago Watson was in front of Hardaker in the pecking order for the U20s. So its all about being given a go and a bit of luck with injuries. I really do believe he can be a star in Super League if not for Leeds some other team, but he just needs game time. He will bulk up in the next year or so as its about 22 years when you start to put the timber on. But as he is in the last year of his contract and Leeds don't change their 19 around, I guess it might be some other team who will see his best years.'" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Moh-duKohug Watson makes some good cover tackles, especially one in the corner and gets a try Hood looked to move well from Hooker, try and a nice break can be seen Keinhorst makes a nice offload for a try in the corner Chisholm looks to have but on some good timber

Again I ask the question what has Vickery done on the field to suggest he deserves his place - he was terrible last night.

He looks pedestrian in attack and unable to read the attack when defending. Watson would have to be pretty poor to be worse than Vickery.

I would agree, from what I have seen from the games I haven't been that impressed with vickery. He might very well be training the house down and have a good attitude but in the games I have seen he hasn't been great. For me he has come into the team as a utility man replacing smith, and I would much rather we had smith.

For me he seems very much like a Michael Cody signing.