Absolutely feeble.

Unless there's more than one guy called Darren Lockyer then it's pretty much just him isn't it?

I'd given both Thurston and Cam Smith the benefit of the doubt.

Don't forget Benji Marshall. It's just a pity he didn't come over for the tournament...

But there not called Darren Lockyer?

What is it with Birtish fans? English players perform to excellent levels in our domestic competition and they're denigrated because they can't do it on the international stage.

Then they actually do it, and regardless of accent, reputation or ancestry Sinfield has played much better at 6 so far in this tournament than Marshall or Lockyer and that is dis-regarded.

Sal paradise is simply gooey eyed about anyone Antipodean regardless of what they do or don't do on the pitch.

We must agree to differ - Sinfield has had one good game so far - he wasn't brilliant against Wales, poor against Australia - out played by Lockyer - but good against NZ.

As I said it will be an interesting to see if he can up his game and play better against Lockyer than he did at Wembley.

You asked for an example of an international standard Stand off I gave you Lockyer - I would have thought that was pretty simple really - obviously not for you



So let's turn this discussion round a bit - if we agree the Aussies are the strongest side - which of their players would you consider real top quality and which players from either England or NZ would get in the Aussie side.

For me
Slater, Inglis, Lockyer, Thurston, Scott, Smith, Gallen are top quality players

From NZ only Adam Blair would get in that side - Marshall/Thurston its a close call

England - Graham maybe Ellis maybe

In this tournament I think you have only 10 true top quality players

Based upon the performances in this tournament - and that's what is relevant here - then Tomkins, Hall, Sinfield, Graham, Ellis, Westwood and Roby have been at least as good as anything they have faced.

Would agree re this tournament. Westwood for me has been the pick of the backrow for me, not easy overshadowing Ellis. I think he gives too many penalties away but dont think you can take the aggression out of his game.

Not suggesting he is a world beater but JJB has impressed for me and has been a good bench man.

No, I didn't ask for an example of an international stand off. Obviously plain English is too complicated for you. You even quoted my post, but didn't read it. Then it's pretty par for the course with you.

No. He asked for a definition of international class. Lockyer is no more a definition of international class than Osama Bin Laden is a definition of political Islam.

International class is a very subjective test and can be different things to different people.

You asked for a definition - Darren Lockyer - look at his qualities that defines what an international stand off should be - that leap of comprehension is obviously beyond you - to quote you that is par for the course with you - it is a pity i can't type slower you would be able to keep up.

As I said his qualities define what an international stand off should be - it is that obvious - however if you can't comprehend that just say so and I will go into further detail.

It is like saying how do you define a great artist - just look at Monet's paintings, just look at a David Hockney it is so obvious - just watch Darren Lockyer play and that is all the definition of what an international stand off is you need

No, it's not. Your reasoning is sloppy and your arguments are wrong.

Monet's paintings do not define a great artist - they are merely examples of the work of a great artist.
For someone with little or no knowledge of art, or with low aesthetic values they would define absolutely nothing.

Darren Lockyer displays the qualities of an international player, but that is not an definition of international class.
If you want to engage in constructive debate, you really should be a little more concise, cut out the category errors, and not expect others to follow your fanciful 'leaps of comprehension'

Oh, and by the way, you still haven't provided a definition of 'international class'

Don't try it on with feeble insults, you're doing it to the wrong person. You decided all on your own that you were going to define a stand off, but you couldn't even manage that, all you could do was type a players name.

I don't know why you bother anymore to be honest, you've dug a huge hole for yourself over Kevin Sinfield and you are just trying to bully your way out of it like you do when you lose every argument.

Comparing an impressionist with a leader in the pop art movement is like comparing a banana and a naan bread. So can you define why they are considered great artists (and in an exam you wouldn't be able to just put - "it's obvious" - zero mark there for Sal) ? Or were they the first two names that came into your head when you were thinking up this bat$h!t analogy?


Please feel free to cut and paste from Wikipedia, my wife can score it, she studied the history of art at the OU (she, and everyone else were obviously wasting their time if it's obvious).

.... similarly, by Sal's method, there's never actually been an international class prop forward 'cos none of them had Lockyer's qualities.

I'd go further - if "International class" requires you to be as good a Lockyer (record holder for: International caps, Australian tries, State of Origin appearances, NRL/ARL apperances, Tries scorer for Australia) then there has probably only ever been a handful of international class players



(That I've seen play I'd have to limit the list to say Meninga, Lockyer, Johns, Hanley and Richie Spedding)

Kevin Sinfield really isn't a 6.

No way can Sinfield by attributed for the loss but his kicking was poor tonight and not even the most dedicated of Sinfield fans can argue against that.

Agree wasn't just sinfield who made us lose that game. But the kicking game wasn't great from either of our half backs. There were lots of the England team that didn't Play well but that's sport. Not sinfields best game but by the same token wasn't his fault alone that England lost, as said there were a fair few poor performances

At the end of the day a good kick from deep gains you an extra 5-15 metres when you are defending and tonight that was the only problem with Sinfield, the knock on in the 2nd half was nothing and no one was composed with ball in hand in when in the Aussie 20m zone, Sinfield was like so many tonight, average.

I'd probably go with Graham being our better man tonight.

Australia didn't allow us to play......Enuf Said

You can't play the Aussies on the back foot and that's what happened tonight not enough decent ball and no momentum.