I think I remember a post from Richie early on after we signed Buderus that summed it up for me. Along the lines of, Leeds had the opportunity to sign a quality player (Buderus) which doesn't come along that often and did.

I can see why Leeds signed him, and most of us could see how the two hookers failed to play together. The problem on this board was that every time (or almost) the subject was mentioned there was the argument about wether Diskin or Buderus should be dumped and who was better (and I admit to doing it as well). As it actually turned out in year one, if we had signed Buderus and gotten rid of Diskin then we would have been in schtuck due to Buderus's injury problems . Last year didn't work well at all with both of them fit, and this year we may really be seeing the World beater Buderus in a Leeds shirt. 2 out of 3 years not bad. I'll settle for that if he has a stormer.

I agree..nobody has deliberately gone out to harm the club...AND I do believe GH is the best thing to happen to the club in many decades.

My point is simply that mistakes can be made and nobody should hero-worship anybody or anything whatever their status. Some on here seem to think everything the club does is beyond reproach and we should all slavishly toe the line in due gratitude and unquestioning servitude to a dogma.

Agreed but we as fans are not infallible and our views are not gospel, we do not have all the answers and just like the club we should be prepared to have our judgements/views questioned and accept it as a consequence of putting fingers to keyboard?

Even if that were true, does it elevate them above scrutiny and or criticism. Are they infallable, can no decision ever be questioned. The discussion is not in the round it is quite targetted.



Leeds named St Helens (Cunningham and Roby) specifically as their blueprint then signed one of the best hookers of his generation. So far so good. The only problem was Leeds already had a fine hooker capable of taking the lead role and what they actually needed was the sparky game changer. They ended up with arguably a worse situation than they originally had.

Had Diskin still been on the books we likely as not would have lost one of the opening two fixtures, possibly both.



=#FF0000That would be difficult to compare with something that didn't happen. There is no disputing Jones-Bishop will have gained valuable experience at Harlequins just that while Leeds were filling in with Bush, Coady and Clarkson on the wing that rather suggests there would also have been an opportunity for him to gain some of that SL exposure at Headingley. Instead we had Coach McClennan stating that Jones-Bishop would not be recalled (after Donald's early season injury) because 'he's primarily a full-back.' Additionally perhaps that would have required Donald to earn the shirt on his return and equally perhaps Leeds could have left Smith suffering in excile instead of throwing him an expensive(?) lifeline.



The Broughton situation goes back to the decision to extend Donald's contract in mid 2009 when his form didn't merit an extension and he'd indicated he was considering returning home as he had a post RL career waiting. Or in reality the quota rules were tightening and he no longer was a justifiable use of a spot. Then he somewhat surprisingly became exempt under the quota regulations (thanks to Stanley Gene and Simon Finnegan challenging the RFL's new quota rules) and he stayed on for a year crowding out Broughton's and or Jones-Bishop's opportunity there in 2010.

The rest is not really an issue for me as Delaney had completely missed my radar, Ambler I'm unconvinced by and Hardaker I still haven't seen enough to judge. Why effectively replace Broughton (already invested in, own Academy produced, good understanding with his Academy centre Watkins) with Hardaker though .... More expensive (signing on fee and contract?) and completely unproven at SL level. Broughton last year playing in an often outclassed team scored tries against seven of the eventual top eight, gained selection for the England Quad Nations train on squad, played in the England trial game for the Garry Purdham fund and again was on the scoreboard V St Helens on Friday night.

I have to say that I agree with all your comments. Personally would like to see Hardaker proving himself in Super League but playing in a comepetive Championship as opposed to ther under 20s is much better. Just like shipping Amor out is the best option for all parties.

At the time signing Buderus was probably not the best option as we needed to replace a 2nd rower and we kept a two hooker system for far two long but like all good management (Alex Ferguson) we have been ruthless and kept the better hooker and I hope that he comes close to realising the undoubted ability and skill that has seen him captain Austrailia (I think) on a consistent basis and not just over two matches.

I am fully behind the Leeds managemtn and even more excited for the rest of the season as I think it seems like McDermott will back his decisions and play youth over experience. I hope its not just a one off.

Also very pleased to read on Twitter that Delaney enjoyed playing in the 2nd row. I hope his injury isn't too serious and he continues as he did on Friday night. He will only get better in that position.

Without trying to contradict my previous comments, the players filling in for Leeds last season were clearly not up to scratch and in all honesty having Jones-Bishop playing for Leeds would of been excellent but I do feel that he gained more experience week in week out at Harlequins. Last season was last season and is over and this season we are now reaping the benefits of that experience he gained. Having suffered from illness for the entirety of the 2010 Super League season I am excited by this season but feel that we should be enjoying watching BJB this season and not dwelling on the mistakes.

These are just my thoughts and since moving to London I don't have anyone to discuss rugby with so I'm not disrespecting your opinions I'm just offering my views.

I agree to an extent with what you are saying. In hindsight Buderus might turn out to be a excellent signing, or one we just didn't need. The next couple of years will show us that. It was clearly an awkward situation with Diskin being an integral member of the squad and I daresay a fairly popular one amongst his peers. I think both hookers would have operated better playing 60+ minutes and at times we did accommodate Diskin. Would dropping him have caused ructions in the dressing room? I guess we'll never know. A brave decision needed making and was made. We now have the better option available to use and hopefully he will deliver.




Age can be deceptive when it comes to RL players. Some, for example Sinfield and Walker, develop very early. Others make their mark in the game much later. He was clearly behind Donald, Hall and probably Watkins for a wing spot and is primarily a full back. He was never going to gain much first team action at Leeds in his prime position and so the club, obviously thinking a lot of him sent him on loan to develop, which he quite clearly has. WOuld he have gained more playing 15 games on the wing for Leeds - I personally don't think he would.




I confess to not having seen much of him before he left but the club obviously decided his value. He could get a bigger contract and the chance of first team rugby elsewhere and took it. Good luck to the kid but I'm buying that Leeds made a shocking decision on the back of one decent season for Salford. DOn't forget Leeds had seen him play for Hull in SL so had that to judge him on.




Yes there would. As neither of the above are close to being centres. WOuld you have been happy with another year of Ablett as centre, thus restricting his development as a back rower, or with Watkins being thrown in every week?




I agree whole heartedly on Delaney as a 2nd rower. He has all the attrributes for it. There weren't many games when Smith, Hall and Donald were all available until the end of the year. That move then could have caused more disruption. For Ablett see above.. and he was one of our better players at times last year. Leave him where he is!



Who of Cross, Bailey, Kylie, Burgess, Peacock and Kirke would you have AMbler in front of? Only Kirke at a guess, which means he is 6th choice prop forward when we only play we 3 or 4. He wouldn't have been involved much bar a lot of injuries. Hardaker would be behind BJB, Smith and Hall and possibly Watkins. Again, he wouldn't have seen much action.



He's got nowhere near the skill set required to play stand off - it'll never happen!!!

Sorry to hear about your illness. A ruthless management perhaps would have released Diskin sooner (after completing the signing of Buderus) rather than extending his existing contract still further during the 2010 season, although not to extend his deal as part of the mythical 'Magnificent Seven' announcement in the middle of his Testimonial season would have perhaps looked eh for want of a better word ..... ruthless.

No they are not infallable. I have had many many a discussion about the merits of one signing or another. However I think sometimes we have to accept that the people who make these decisions know a lot more than we do. To say the club has been mismanaged given our recent success and the current squad at our disposal is frankly, laughable.




We improved the squad. Yes, there were probably other areas of greater need at the time. Yet the squad was still good enough to win the title the following year. I questioned the need at the time but was still bloody excited about seeing Danny Buderus in a Leeds shirt. We are certainly in a stronger position now than we were at the end of 2008.




Idle speculation. There is nothing to suggest this is true. We had a fairly good record against Hull and Bradford I would expect with the two of them in the squad.




OK compare his one peformance (against Salford on Easter Monday??) with that of last week and they are leagues apart. Sending him to Harlequins was clearly the right decision at the time. Whether he should have been recalled is a matter for debate. I still think he gained more from being the main man in his prime position at Quins than he would have been playing all over the backline filling in for Leeds.




Donald was part of a period of unrivalled success for the club. His from was never that poor in 2009 and to suggest Broughton, after very little SL experience would have replaced him successfully would have been a gamble from the club. They had worked with him every day and obviously didn't think he was ready in 2010. he has since proved otherwise and good luck to him. I am happy enough with our wing options at present. For every Jodie Broughton there is a Leroy Rivett around the corner



I'm not sure Broughton has been replaced by hardaker at all. More, we have snapped up a kid with bags of potential looking towards the future. I would guess it has cost fairly little in comparison at present.

Thanks.

I completely agree, Ferguson got rid of Beckham, Stam, Keane etc ruthlessly and has been successful since. I really rate Diskin, was a fantastic player for the club but it was clear to see Leeds do not need a two hooker system that included Buderus and Diskin. I was excited by the signing of Buderus but at the time an unnecessary signing unless we were going to offload ruthlessly. Which I don't mind as long as we are progressing preferably with young English players.

I agree it would be if that is what was happening here. Posters are debating individual decisions taken, not seeking to throw the baby out with the bathwater.



So isn't it a pity that we haven't seen enough of Buderus when he's been available over the last two seasons and isn't it exciting now that we might get to this season?



I'm not speculating about Leeds' recent record against Hull And Bradford (that is available for all to see) I'm speculating that had Diskin still been at Leeds this season we would still be seeing the mandatory substitution policy employed for the last two seasons when both were available (although with a new coach, perhaps not) and that loss of direction could have cost Leeds in a tight game.



So there weren't wing performance=#FF0000s as such in 2009 to judge against afterall. Do the Harlequins have superior coaching resources, do they have a better track record at developing youngsters? What we see now was always there.

I agree Jones-Bishop needed SL exposure I just felt that opportunity could have come at Leeds in 2010 at the expense of Donald who was going through the motions.



Did Broughton not also represent that at the time?

Broughton was already on the books having progressed through the Headingley system, waiting for an opportunity at his hometown club. Hardaker has been recruited from outside the club from the Championship (a comparative unknown quantity - representing a bigger risk - I hope he makes it) and has cost the club a sizeable signing on fee.



No worries. We're all friendly here.

do you not think tvoc that having come through the system the coaches who had seen him for years were best place to judge if we kept him or not?

Of course.

Does that make their decision infallable? The same set-up have made other decisions some would take issue with.

To remind folk of my position at the time (that was during the 2009 season not looking back with the benefit of glorious hindsight from where we are today) was basically that it was time to say thank you and so long to the soon to be out of contract Scott Donald and for his place to be taken in the 1st grade squad by one of the Academy prospects Watkins/Broughton/Jones-Bishop.

All three had the potential, all three I would have liked to see integrated into the 1st grade squad occupying the future full-back, wing and centre positions.

Donald (a decidedly average antipodean) was effectively blocking their 1st grade opportunity in the short-term and to what end?

The departures of Donald and Diskin ripped the heart out of one particular poster on this forum, especially considering that the very same poster had been quite vitriolic towards Eastwood for reneging on his contract.

I for one hope he makes a full and speedy recovery.

Leeds have enjoyed unparallelled success during an era in which many of our juniors have shown unswerving loyalty to the club. GH has, mainly, returned that loyalty. Has any club ever had a cluster of testimonials to match Leeds these last seven years?

The whole system is built around that reciprocal loyalty. It's the foundation to building a team rather than assembling a squad of the most talented individuals in every position. It's crucial and without it I doubt we'd have retained some of the stars we have. Re-read Kevin Sinfield's post Grand Final speech 2009 and have a think again about whether Leeds should "ruthlessly" discard players that have served them so well.

It has worked very, very well.

Donald was a decidedly average player in your opinion. That is the whole basis of your gripe with his retention and the feeling it cost us Broughton. The reason I think your view is flawed is two fold. Donald was an excellent winger, one of the best in the league. Broughton has still to show anything remotely reaching the levels Donald did and probably won't get the chance because he wasn't prepared to wait for it, unlike his contemporaries now enjoying the limelight at Leeds rather than the low-lights at Salford.

So we both agree that Leeds were not ruthless in their treatment of Diskin after securing the signature of the world class Buderus.

I guess I must have been correct in disputing the comparison being drawn to Alex Ferguson, whoever he is. Thanks for your support on this occassion.

Thank goodness they weren't or I wonder if we'd have secured that record setting 3rd consecutive GF.

Something to do with football I think. I've no idea if the comparison is valid as I have no interest in the sport.

Not a sentiment I would imagine many of the players who have provided our club with it's most successful era ever could pass on to you.

Decidedly average antipodean I think I said (although I stopped short of calling him abysmal unlike one noted supporter) and therein lies an important distinction in an age of salary caps and supposed overseas trained quotas. It's not too nuianced an argument for you to appreciate I'm sure. Broughton had already shown and continues to do so that he would have been capable of replacing Donald (at a similar level - in my opinion of course) and continue the fine Academy legacy everyone is rightly so proud of at Headingley.

For reasons unknown (perhaps not even rugby ability related) he was not offered a contract (unless you can show otherwise - and you've never managed it so far) so I'm unsure where the patience he was supposed to show angle comes from.



Depends how you define 'support.'

I've never taken the sycophantic approach preferring to keep it real and speak as I find.

We all have our crosses to bear. You are probably Ian Kirke's not that I take issue with that.

I would have thought it was fairly clear that the club has shown enormous loyalty to the playing squad over the last few years, and had that returned in large part. It seems pretty 'ruthless' to me (for want of a better word) to start changing things significantly towards the end of the club's first trophyless season in 4 years. Whilst we were winning things turning over the squad in numbers would have been closer to insane than ruthless.

That's my impression of what happened last year, and Hetherington started to implement Plan B pretty much straight away after the CC final - he was clearly very very unhappy with how Leeds performed on the day.

So your issue is/was his place on the quota, rather than his ability?

We will have to respectfully disagree on the level Broughton has already attained.


I have no evidence to suggest he wasn't? Do you?

Me too. I doubt my expressed views on Kirke and the hero worship bestowed upon Buderus would hardly be described as sycophantic. Surely you're not resorting to saying I am sycophantic because my opinion differs to yours? Our debates may well be repetitive in nature but they have always been a step above that.



Should Kirke continue to display the kind of performance he did Friday night he shall have my wholehearted, sycophantic if you will, support. I like to think I am as objective as you, just perhaps from the opposite spectrum of optimism/cheerfulness.

No, my issue was with the contribution he was making on the field during 2009 (you described his performances over the first half of that season as abysmal), together with his commitment to the future and whether that could and should be replaced from within by one of the rising stars, while acknowledging in a salary cap and supposed quota restricted sport those factors would count against him also.



Kind of (in print from the YEP) but not as a directly attributable quote from either the player or the CEO. The point being I don't recall him turning down an offer to stay at Leeds (and I suspect neither do you) so the charge that he wasn't prepared to wait for an opportunity seems based on a unproven assumption. Without a contract offer being made for him to reject there's not a lot he could have done bar move on in that situation.

Perhaps his full-time studies in Doncaster were not compatable with his schedule at Headingley, it was stated when he went on loan to Hull that the move would allow him to do both. Who knows all the ins and outs and whether every decision is based on ability alone.




I know.



Perhaps there are reasons for our respective outlooks and perhaps there is room for both.

Perhaps I over reacted slightly, but I still want to know if he was being critical of Hetherington or McLennan. I think either would be harsh - Hetherington brought one of the best players of his generation to the club who might yet help us to more success, Bluey was then put in a difficult position where he had to try and keep both happy. It wasn't ideal and I never thought those 2 hookers would compliment each other, however I'm sure it was all done with the best intentions.




To be fair I think he played more and more as the year went on last year. In 2009 while showing glimpses of his talent he hardly set the world alight. This year he will hopefully come into his own. he will still need minutes of the field though. Hopefully McShane will show up a bit better and if not maybe when McGuire comes back Sinfield will play a bit at hooker.




I'm not sure Diskin's performances were ever as bad as is being mad out. I think he struggled at times behind a pack on the back foot. To say we would have lost either game is pure speculation. Incidentally Diskin was very good against Leeds in Cardiff playing a similar role to the one you say he might have struggled in.




Trust you to pull me up on a technicality.I knew there was one for sure and thought he'd played again? Did he not, or was it in another postion? I'm not sure there coaching staff would have been much worse than ours last year to be honest, especially looking at technical aspects of the game. The talent might have been there but they gave him a chance to play week in week out which was crucial to his development at that time.




And then come the time when Webb's contract is up we have a player who is settled on the wing with little or no experience of playing full back at the top level. We still wouldn't know how he'd fare in that position. I think now we know we have a player more than capable of makign that position his own.



I've said I hadn't seen enough of Broughton. I'm happy to accept the judgement of people who worked with him every day. How much was the signing on fee? Has that cost us a lot more than an improved contract for Broughton would have?

Goodness me no. We must disagree and publicly so until the other backs down. Things just wouldn't seem right otherwise.

Increased levels of wrestling probably did him no favours either. Providing referees do crack down on wrestling (and there was no sign of this happening at odsal yesterday) then we might yet see Diskin surprise some doubters.