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| Quote ="G1"Lets ask him eh?'"
He won't be pleased with my answer...
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"So what you are saying is you are happy to use the stats when it suits your argument but if it shows Bailey is as bad as Kirke you reject them?
'"
No, what I am clearly saying is the detail behind the stats has to be taken into consideration before making a judgement. Not too controversial. You, yourself go on to say the same thing. Without seeing the play the stats are not useful at all and do not quantify quality in any way.
Quote Also you did not answer Gotcha's valid points, your excuse being a train to catch, yet you kept sending further postings! Not up to your normal standard G1'" Which valid points didn't I answer, assuming one can answer a point. If you'd like to repeat them I'll happily try, though I actually do have some work to do this week so don't have my usual free time. Had you read properly you'd have noted I was posting from the train using the East Coast mainline WiFi.
Quote While I share your view of Kirke I think you will find his average stats for the season are very similar to Bailey's'" Well, unless you hold the same view as Bailey, which I and many others don't and which it appears from later in your post you don't, then doesn't that demonstrate that whilst the stats are interesting their use is somewhat questionable overall.
Quote Of course the detail behind the stats has to be taken into consideration befor making a judgement. '"
Is that you saying you're happy to use the stats when they suit you?
Quote Most forwards come up with a high tackle rate but when this is on the back of a high number of hit ups you have the real stars! JJB & Peacock take a bow. Their performance in these 2 key areas also gives some mitigation for the penalties they regularly give away as they are involved in the game to a much higher degree than some of their teammates. There are no stats for the kick chase but I am sure JJB would figure highly here as well.'" Excellent observation. I couldn't agree more.
Quote Bailey has been in a good run of form and I give him the due credit for this.'" Indeed, despite the fact that his stats are comparable with Kirkes, making the point we both seem top agree on that whilst they're interesting they often don't tell us anywhere near the full picture.
Quote However he really does not deserve the cult status with which you credit him.'" I think you give me too much credit. Neither I nor bloodbath gave him that status. He's earned it. Just look at the number of posts and threads about him and the number of comments from opposition fans. He deserves it if for no other reason than to upset Saints fans.
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| Quote ="Wheels"He won't be pleased with my answer...'"
He'll tell you you didn't mean what you typed then he'll tell you what you really meant.
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| Quote ="G1"No, what I am clearly saying is the detail behind the stats has to be taken into consideration before making a judgement. Not too controversial. You, yourself go on to say the same thing. Without seeing the play the stats are not useful at all and do not quantify quality in any way.
Which valid points didn't I answer, assuming one can answer a point. If you'd like to repeat them I'll happily try, though I actually do have some work to do this week so don't have my usual free time. Had you read properly you'd have noted I was posting from the train using the East Coast mainline WiFi.
Well, unless you hold the same view as Bailey, which I and many others don't and which it appears from later in your post you don't, then doesn't that demonstrate that whilst the stats are interesting their use is somewhat questionable overall.
Is that you saying you're happy to use the stats when they suit you?
Excellent observation. I couldn't agree more.
Indeed, despite the fact that his stats are comparable with Kirkes, making the point we both seem top agree on that whilst they're interesting they often don't tell us anywhere near the full picture.
I think you give me too much credit. Neither I nor bloodbath gave him that status. He's earned it. Just look at the number of posts and threads about him and the number of comments from opposition fans. He deserves it if for no other reason than to upset Saints fans.'"
My point about the stats is this: When taken in isolation and perhaps just for one game they can be misleading as they can overlook certain conditions/injuries/possesion etc. So we should be cautious with our judgement. I think we agree on this.
However the stats when taken over the longer period (eg 14 games) show real trends that cannot be dismissed so easily. These stats show that the performance for Bailey and Kirke is very very similar and show for both a low average number of hit ups and go forward, which for a big prop is p*** poor. Their average number of tackles is typical for a forward. So to vilify one of these players while at the same time hero worshipping the other is flying in the face of the facts. There are no stats that show agressive tackles which is the one area that Bailey scores over Kirke and seems to be why so many fall for his charms!
Certainly the stats show Bailey and Kirke to be easily tackled and gain less metres than their colleagues so this talk of Bailey being feared in SL is just a myth. If it is tongue in cheek to upset the Stains then thats a different matter. But both players IMO are below par for a champion side particulary when compared to Peacock and JJB who both stay on the field for much longer without the extra resting time.
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"My point about the stats is this: When taken in isolation and perhaps just for one game they can be misleading as they can overlook certain conditions/injuries/possesion etc. So we should be cautious with our judgement. I think we agree on this.
'"
We do.
Quote However the stats when taken over the longer period (eg 14 games) show real trends that cannot be dismissed so easily. These stats show that the performance for Bailey and Kirke is very very similar and show for both a low average number of hit ups and go forward, which for a big prop is p*** poor. Their average number of tackles is typical for a forward. So to vilify one of these players while at the same time hero worshipping the other is flying in the face of the facts. There are no stats that show agressive tackles which is the one area that Bailey scores over Kirke and seems to be why so many fall for his charms!'" Here we disagree. The stats show similar numbers. They do not show their performances are similar. You go on to say yourself there is no stats to show who won collision, aggression in collision, speed of play the ball, activity at marker etc. How then can these cumulative facts show a similar performance? They certainly cannot pass as facts.
Quote Certainly the stats show Bailey and Kirke to be easily tackled and gain less metres than their colleagues so this talk of Bailey being feared in SL is just a myth. If it is tongue in cheek to upset the Stains then thats a different matter. But both players IMO are below par for a champion side particulary when compared to Peacock and JJB who both stay on the field for much longer without the extra resting time.'" It is grossly unfair to compare any prop to Peacock. He is a freak. You may consider both players below par for a champion side but they have both played their parts in three champion sides.
I call it as I see it, usually with little reference to the stats. I see what Kirke does and doesn't do in games. I see what Bailey does and doesn't do. I know how important physical domination is in contact sport. One player brings that by the bucket, the other by the tea spoon.
IMHO, of course.
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| Quote ="G1"We do.
Here we disagree. The stats show similar numbers. They do not show their performances are similar. You go on to say yourself there is no stats to show who won collision, aggression in collision, speed of play the ball, activity at marker etc. How then can these cumulative facts show a similar performance? They certainly cannot pass as facts.'"
True. But forgetting Kirke for the moment you cannot get away from the low number of hit ups and metres gained (over a long period) for Bailey when compared to most of the other forwards. A props main job is to do the hit ups and take the side forward.
Quote ="G1"It is grossly unfair to compare any prop to Peacock. He is a freak. You may consider both players below par for a champion side but they have both played their parts in three champion sides.'"
OK compare then with JJB who is smaller physically, plays in more games (and more starts when its tough) and averages over 27 tackles , with 13.67 hit ups and over 90 metres gain, per game. As I said before these stats don't record the kick chase and creative play that JJB regularly delivers. Of course both Bailey & Kirk have played their part in 3 championships as they are part of the squad.
Quote ="G1"I call it as I see it, usually with little reference to the stats. I see what Kirke does and doesn't do in games. I see what Bailey does and doesn't do. I know how important physical domination is in contact sport. One player brings that by the bucket, the other by the tea spoon.'"
Fair point - but I would be happier if Bailey were to take the ball up at least by the ladle and not by the desert spoon!
Quote ="G1"IMHO, of course.'"
Mine too
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| Ho hum. Anyway, I suspect the average yardage of the KR props says a lot about our defence in that game, regardless of how many tackles anyone made.
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| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"Ho hum. Anyway, I suspect the average yardage of the KR props says a lot about our defence in that game, regardless of how many tackles anyone made.'"
Good point. For much of the season the opposition has kept moving forward with 2 Leeds tacklers on board having gone too high. Yet these are both rewarded in the tackle count as are 3rd and 4th tacklers. IMO if 3 are in the tackle they should only get awarded a 3rd of the tackle count each. It should only be a solo tackle that brings the attacker to ground that gets the full tackle count.
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| I'd separate the tackle count in to two elements.
1) 1st and 2nd man making the tackle
and
2) 3rd man in
With Opta recording a count for each.
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| Some people seem to be suggesting that being 3rd man in a tackle is a bad thing
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| Quote ="leicester_rhino"Some people seem to be suggesting that being 3rd man in a tackle is a bad thing'"
It may well not be a bad thing and indeed in a lot of cases a needed thing. But what about the times it's not required yet recorded as a tackle. What a fraudulant stat that would then be, if that player is given credit on a par with others that are always first.
That said however, we also need to take into account that fact that it could also be that without that 3rd man, that the other two may well have had a misssed tackle recorded rather than an actual tackle.
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| Quote ="Gotcha"It may well not be a bad thing and indeed in a lot of cases a needed thing. But what about the times it's not required yet recorded as a tackle. What a fraudulant stat that would then be, if that player is given credit on a par with others that are always first.
That said however, we also need to take into account that fact that it could also be that without that 3rd man, that the other two may well have had a missed tackle recorded rather than an actual tackle.'"
IMO a 3rd man in is always needed, just because it will nearly always result in a slower play the ball.
I like TVOCs separate category for it though, but given they can't get the basics right I doubt this would ever happen
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| Quote ="leicester_rhino"IMO a 3rd man in is always needed, just because it will nearly always result in a slower play the ball.'"
I would rather a club concentrated its defensive training on one on one tackles been effective, because we for example are certainly falling short in this regard this year.
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| Quote ="Gotcha"I would rather a club concentrated its defensive training on one on one tackles been effective, because we for example are certainly falling short in this regard this year.'"
Thats a separate matter, being 3rd man in costs next to no energy, and helps the whole team by loads
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| Quote ="tvoc"I'd separate the tackle count in to two elements.
1) 1st and 2nd man making the tackle
and
2) 3rd man in
With Opta recording a count for each.'"
That would f*uck up Bailey's stats then & James Graham's.
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| Quote ="tvoc"I'd separate the tackle count in to two elements.
1) 1st and 2nd man making the tackle
and
2) 3rd man in
With Opta recording a count for each.'"
Would you also advocate the separate recording of metres gained from kick returns & returning kick offs (Kicks off?)?
You've already highlighted the issues with OPTA stats yet you seemingly wish to create the potential for further confusion.
Let's just treat them as an indication of involvement/activity/effectiveness/failure & as a means of stimulating debate.
I do, however, thank you for taking the time to provide them for us on here.
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| Quote ="Old Feller"That would f*uck up Bailey's stats then & James Graham's.'"
It certainly wouldn't f*ck up Graham's - he'd still be taking more hit ups and making more metres than any forward in SL.
Bailey, on the other hand, wouldn't have a great deal left.
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| Quote ="FearTheVee"It certainly wouldn't f*ck up Graham's - he'd still be taking more hit ups and making more metres than any forward in SL.
Bailey, on the other hand, wouldn't have a great deal left.'"
We were talking about tackles here not hit ups or metres gained so butt out.
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| Quote ="Old Feller"Would you also advocate the separate recording of metres gained from kick returns & returning kick offs (Kicks off?)?
You've already highlighted the issues with OPTA stats yet you seemingly wish to create the potential for further confusion.
Let's just treat them as an indication of involvement/activity/effectiveness/failure & as a means of stimulating debate.
I do, however, thank you for taking the time to provide them for us on here.'"
The stats are reproduced in order to stimulate rugby related debate and by providing a game by game breakdown which is intended to allow posters to question their overall accuracy when they can more readily associate the outputs to individual performances they've just witnessed .... should they wish to do so. In respect of Leeds players, building up a collection of threads to highlight certain key aspects and compliment the online source with their wider range of measures and cumulative season by season figures.
I personally only tend to highlight the Try Assist stat where most if not all posters will have access to footage from one source or another during the week to focus their attention precisely and judge for themselves the validity of the awards and question when they are not awarded (Jones-Buchanan's pass for the Hall try this week for example.) Unfortunately it has appeared to me that consistency in these decisions can vary from week to week and you do wonder therefore whether that is reflected throughout.
The division of tackles was tongue in cheek with the Ryan Bailey debate having had a week off after his recent illness.
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| Interestingly (?) the club collects its own stats I believe, yet despite what the OPTA version seems to tell us, the coaches continue to pick Kirke.
I wonder why?
Do they see something we don't (well some of us on here) or is it merely that with our injuries they have no option?
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| Quote ="Old Feller"Interestingly (?) the club collects its own stats I believe, yet despite what the OPTA version seems to tell us, the coaches continue to pick Kirke.
I wonder why?
Do they see something we don't (well some of us on here) or is it merely that with our injuries they have no option?'"
I don't think Kirke is as bad as some on here portray him but IMO he wouldn't be in the 17 if everyone was fit.
Have we had JJB, Ablett, Ali & Eastwood all fit at the same time at any point this year?
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| Quote ="Tony Soprano"I don't think Kirke is as bad as some on here portray him but IMO he wouldn't be in the 17 if everyone was fit.
'" He's worse.
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| Quote ="G1"He's worse.'"
You love him really
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| Quote ="Tony Soprano"Have we had JJB, Ablett, Ali & Eastwood all fit at the same time at any point this year?'"
not forgetting sinfields move to the backs as well. When those players are back, Sinfield at LF and the emergence of Clarkson it may be a struggle to get into the 17 although there are discussions on Eastwood which may help.
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