icon_smile.gificon_smile.gificon_smile.gif

I'd assumed Gareth was referring to himself!!!

Well that's opinion i posted at the time and given Scotty's form and lack of confidence at that time i thought it was harsh for Watkins to be dropped albeit after 1 decent game.

I bring that poster to climax four times a day.

Through fingering?

Let's try and add some meat to these bare bones. I know you like your Opta stats to add to any debate, so I'll offer you the choice of either Donald's previous (Catans home win) or following (Huddersfield away win) appearances to set against the 'poor' Jones-Bishop's stats from the Salford home defeat in 2009. Or you could have both if you prefer.



So far you've given two appraisals for Jones-Bishop's wing play. The first was a little inadequate consisting of just the one word 'poor' while the second was an 100% improvement with 'very ordinary'. Are you a fan of the Hitch Hikers Guide by any chance? So what are your specific areas of concern or are they amply expressed by your appraisals so far.



It's interesting that the player who you see as heir apparent to the full back position at Headingley could not succeed given his opportunity on the wing. I've always considered full back the more demanding of the two positions and provided the player had pace he'd also be able to adapt quite nicely to the wing.

My preference is my own appraisal of performances. Stats can be a useful tool in some circumstances and not so much in others.

If you could quantify how Donalds statistics from a completely different game help us appraise BJBs performance in another game that may be a start.

They're sufficiently expressed. I saw little to make me think he has the potential to be a better winger, long term or short, than Donald. Did you?

I've not said he could not succeed as a wingman. I saw nothing in his appearances there to suggest he should be 1st choice ahead of Donald and saw nothing to suggest there was any merit in not retaining Donald. Some disagreed with that view. Gary hetherington and Brian Mclennan seemed to agree.

Just as I think Donald will always be a better winger than BJB I think BJB will be a better full back. They're different positions requiring a different skill sets. Some players may be adept at that but I haven't seen it in BJB. It may be there but is that really a basis to release/not retain someone of Donalds' quality?

One of the finest full backs I ever saw was ET. In his 2nd stint he spent a lot of his early games on the wing. He was very poor.

So stats are useful if they support your argument? What about when they don't? From my point of view you either use stats or you don't. What's good for Jones-Buchanan should be equally good for Jones-Bishop.



It's not an exact science comparing any two players generally as they cannot be expected to fulfill the same role, at the same time in the same situation but we all use stats nontheless as indicators of a player's involvement.



I'm more interested to understand the areas where Jones-Bishop wing play has led you to conclude that he performs poorly in that position?



Donald is an overseas trained player, where the RFL have set a limit on their use. In that respect it's reasonable to look within your own set up to see which positions you wish to use those restricted places on. Leeds for 2010 had several Academy prospects potentially able to cover that position and having recently unearthed Hall a track record of giving youth it's chance in the position. I suspect few would now argue as to which is the better winger.



The basis to potentially release Donald at the end of 2009 was that Leeds had two players for the present/near future in Watkins and Jones-Bishop who could have been given valuable 1st grade SL experience on the wing in 2010, without a noticeable loss of quality in the position. Instead we will likely see Jones-Bishop develope at the Harlequins and Watkins kicking his heels in the lower grades at Leeds for the majority of the season.



But not a very poor winger generally I trust you will accept, indeed he was good enough in the position to play the majority of his international career for Australia on the wing IIRC.

Mad quoting skillz there Teev.

I'd have just settled for Mad.

Yeah, I've not yet fathomed how to do multiple quotes.
I know I should Google this but is anyone on here prepared to point me in the right direction?

Don't, its the most annoying thing on any forum is multiple quotes, especially where the quote-er picks tiny parts of sentences and analyses them to destruction, some people should banish the laptop from the bedroom and get out of bed in a morning, there's a whole new world out there...

Cue the theme tune from Disney's Aladdin...

On the other hand using multiple quotes allows the user to address each point individually and should keep the debate flowing right on track.



It turns out to be easier said than done. Every time you type in what you need to do it turns your explanation into a quote of sorts and renders it totally useless.

To Old Feller

I basically click on quote and then splice the post up using the above method before replying to each section in turn, not forgetting to Preview the post before Submitting to avoid alerting the quoting police to any indescretions.

Where have I said that?

Because I watched him play the games and and based upon what I saw I formed an opinion. And I managed to do that without the aid of a spreadsheet. Still if you have any statistics from those games he played on the wing that show he had an amazing game(s) despite what mine eyes saw then by all means produce them.

Leeds are well within those limits (they probably have room for one other overseas player) and the main threat to Donald's wing spot had an opportunity to stake a claim to being a better player than Donald during two loan spells at Hull. He failed to do so and is now at Salford. You, yourself, were critical that Leeds didn't secure an overseas player (or otherwise) to take the right centre spot ahead of Ashley Gibson who also finds himself at Salford. Maybe Delaney and Donald are simply far superior players at first team level and given some fans (you) were unsatisfied with Leeds 3rd consecutive championship from last season then surely the club should attain the best available players for the 1st team within the RFL limits, whether they be Australian or otherwise.

Its' a basis for nothing as I would consider, long term, both to be a loss of quality in the position.

Far better for him and for us than a few uninspiring games on the wing. Didn't do Scott Moore's development and St Helens career any harm spending time out on loan in similar circumstances

He's played in half Leeds 1st team games so far and Delaney was injured tonight so he may have featured in 75% of them by the end of the next round. I doubt Watkins will spend the "majority" of the season out of the 1st team. If he does, it will be because the coach considers he has better options for the 1st team and that Watkins isn't ready yet.

I will accept that.

How was that for quoting?

You watched two performances over two seasons and formed an opinion that Jones-Bishop was poor on the wing. Impressive work. Obviously I value your opinion and I'm interested to know in which respects he was poor as his stats from the Salford game in '09 stand up well in comparison to the usual right wing.



I was satisfied with another Championship and I described Leeds as having a satisfactory season, while feeling that Leeds underperformed in other competitions, a feeling apparently shared by coach McClennan as he stated in the build up to the opening game of the season at the Crusaders.



So why did you call for Kallum Watkins to be given a run at Donald's expense in '09 after the Huddersfield home game when you now claim that would be a loss over Donald in the long term?



I agree that once Leeds retained Donald it was better for Jones-Bishop to go out on loan in SL as he was unlikely to see much game time at Leeds with eight backs (and forward options as back cover) in front of him. I'd still have preferred it had Leeds said thank you and farewell to Donald and given the jersey to a British prospect (given also the increase in overseas trained in other areas of the team) and would have liked one of Broughton, Watkins or Jones-Bishop to have the opportunity in that position.



One for the statisticians to monitor as the season gets underway.

Unconfirmed reports have Delaney out for 4 weeks with a hamstring injury. Watkins should see plenty of action.

Imagine if we'd released Donald. We'd be really struggling for experience and quality in the outside backs and most on here would be slating the clubs administration for not having a strong enough squad like they did with last years' third consecutive championship winning squad.

Injuries happen and you have a squad in place to deal with them.

Had Donald not been re-signed (release wasn't the issue as he was out of contract anyway at the end of 2009) Leeds would perhaps have not seen the need to send Jones-Bishop out on loan to the Harlequins for 2010 and would have used he or Watkins on the right wing gaining valuable 1st grade experience with the Champions. The use of Watkins there would please at least one highly regarded poster who called for him to be given an extended run there in 2009.

Then should a three-quarter get injured (as has occurred now with Delaney) they would either both be in the side or perhaps Coady would be given an early opportunity or equally perhaps Ablett could be spared from the stronger forward group assembled for 2010 with Eastwood, Amor and Pitts available.

Leeds would have had the situation covered whether Donald was on the register for 2010 or not. I accept not with the same degree of experience but how experienced was Hall when promoted into the squad on the wing and he's faired pretty well.

Indeed. And thanks goodness we have players of Donalds'' quality within that squad.


I suspect BJB would have gone to Quins to play the season at FB regardless. It would certainly be a much better option. I am happy to see Watkins get a run in the centres, as I was last year, unlike some.

Coady was playing at Doncaster last year. We may have a diamond in the rough but I would hope our management would have better contingencies in place than such desperate gambles. PS< Ablett was injured last night as well. We'd really be down to the bare bones had we released/not retained DOnald right now and some posters would be berating the management for the squad nnot being strong enough.

The management obviously saw Halls' abilities and had confidence in him being able to handle the 1st team. Something they obviously didn't see in the lad now at Salford (something the Hull management also didn't see either). The lad you wanted to replace Donald.

We'll have to wait and see how that goes for him down there as I doubt he will be guaranteed his place week in, week out and may even find himself on the wing at some point. As long as there is a recall option it's not a big issue and leaves Leeds to play it either way. Watkins played like the excited teenager he was in 2009, that was my issue with him that he had a lot to learn and always stated that Leeds were doing the right thing by not overplaying him at this stage of his career. His first touch at the Crusaders in 2010 putting Leeds under unnecessary pressure was typical of a weakness in his game he displayed last season but he improved as that game went on.



Coady has been with Leeds since last September, played and went OK by all the accounts I've seen in Leeds' trial matches, playing at centre. He was offered as an option in an injury situation (as was Ablett), not as a first choice pick for 2010. That's what you have to do sometime when injuries strike going to second and perhaps even third choice options on occasions. Some may add Eastwood into the possibilities but I wouldn't be one of them. As it stands Watkins comes straight in and on we go but had Donald not been retained Leeds would still have had several options as injury cover.



Broughton was never given a 1st grade opportunity at Headingley (Peter Fox went on to earn International recognition from a similar starting point) but I liked what I saw of Broughton playing in a hapless Hull outfit in 2009. I would have liked to see one of Broughton/Watkins/Jones-Bishop given the right wing role this season, saving Leeds some contract money, reducing the overseas trained to six and help give gametime to another Academy product having lost another in Lee Smith to Union.

Another of my calls last season was that Hull's late signing of Epalahame Lauaki would be a positive move by that club after the disappointment over the loss of Michael Crocker and that Tom Briscoe was going to be a star. St Helens might testify to having the same feeling after tonight.

Tvoc are you referring to when Watkins had the ball pushed out in the 1st tackle???
The tackler clearly forces his hand through Watkins arm and pushes the ball backwards so how this can be seen as a "weakness" when the wrong call was made is strange imo.
I agree he's still raw but i think yer observation of his effort at wrexham is wrong.

great thread this............

TVOC dealing in stats and hard evidence (or semi at least).

Gareth seeking truth and justice despite there not needing to be any in the first place.

Rhinoms bumming anything Leeds.

nohing changes does it!!

Well waded in without reading/seeing anything that's gone on!!
Anymore alias' before you return to yer overpriced sand-dune???

Whose responsibility is ball security, the man in possession or the tacklers? Even if a tackler gets his hand on the ball (I agree this happened) does that excuse the ball carriers poor technique if he loses possession? Shouldn't the ball have been clutched to his chest as he hit it up rather than being left vulnerable tucked under his wing to his side?

Fair point well put,but in this case i think the ball is clearly pushed out in a 2 man tackle and it's happened to many seasoned pros and to identify it as a weakness in Watkins game is harsh imo and especially in this instance.