because the point I am making is form is transient. If what Mcguire/Sinfield and Burrow proved over the last 7/8/9 years is irrelevant then so is half a season of good form from Brough and Briers.

There is no reason for us to assume that two players whose form and commitment has been inconsistent at best will now forever be at the top of their form and fully committed whilst three players whose form and commitment has for a long time been beyond question have suddenly and irrevocably become rubbish.

What history has told us is that in the future, Burrow, Sinfield and Mcguire are likely to regain form and hit their straps whereas Briers and Brough are currently playing above the levels they have hit throughout their careers and if anything are likely to regress.

Why is 2010 relevant but not 2009? either we are basing our predictions for the future on what has happened in the past or we arent. You seem to want base your view on what has happened in the past but only on a very small window of time. Which I think is preventing you seeing the bigger picture.

Briers and Brough arent evolution, they are 32 and 28 respectively. They both do have a quality kicking game, Sinfield has a quality kicking game and Mcguire has a quality short kicking game. Im not sure what you are wanting is evolution, more simply change for the sake of change.

Where are you going to these replacements from.For mine we need to replace Senior,Ali and Kirke.Unfortunatly we may be stuck with Cross and Hauraki both contracted for next season.

Players leaving (or should be leaving) will, IMO, include:
Webb - BJB
Senior - Watkins
Leuluai - Ambler
Cross - New Signing
Burgess - New Signing, but would prefer him to stay
Hauraki - Clarkson
Lauitiiti - New Signing
Kirke - New Signing

So that's 8 players leaving, and at least 3 new signings, maybe 4. Lots of work to do for GH...

Cross contracted for next season,Hauraki contracted for a further two seasons so releasing them is going to be difficult.Is Ambler good enough I'm not so sure.

IMO I'm not sure we know whether Ambler is good enough...... Yet.... But he might be. Very much 'a work in progress' for me.

At the moment he is playing in a very poor team and whilst reports are he's doing ok I don't see him/read about him pulling up trees.

I liken the arguments about Ambler and Amor being the answer to our pack problems to other sports whereby players out of a team are always bigged up to be the answer and held in higher esteem etc to what maybe their performances have deserved?

I think in sport in general it's always the players in the team that get the critism and people think/say bring player 'X' in because he is great and scoring lots of runs/goals/tries in the reserves/county team etc but then when they get the chance sometimes those That had been calling for their inclusion soon come to the conclusion they are doing no better than the person they wanted acing in their place.

Look at Tom Bush. Last season when he got brought in against Wigan away and dud well, many were saying what a star in the making he was and how impressed they were and how he was another 'young gun' coming from our long production line......look at where he is now.

Time will tell whether Ambler and/or Amor are any better than the pack options we currently have. Personally I don't think they are.... AT THE MOMENT ( and the club must agree as otherwise they wouldn't be where they are now) BUT in a year or two they may prove to be better than what we currently have?

One way or another we will soon get the chance to find out if the likes of Kirke and Bailey are released on top of the likely departure of Burgess to the NRL at the end of thus season and possible retirements of JP and Kylie over the next season.

As long as we don't expect anyone to pay us a fee should be able to offload both of them. We should really be paying the other teams to take em!

A YOUNG halfback with the abilty to take control with a good kicking game is still a priority ...followed by a quality proven centre IMO.

I appreciate the need to give kids a chance, but you seem to want to put them all in at once. Kids need to be introduced to a winning team slowly and only a couple at a time, or they will sink not swim.

Btw, Amor isn't going to make it, trust me. We can have this discussion in another 12/24 months time and I will still have the same view

Seriously I DO understand this philosophy....but I am also trying to be realistic with the ideal new signings. What you want I would [iideally[/i want too, but is it realistic ?

My second choice would always be to bring in the fresh 'kids' rather than persist with the tired, stale over-used first teamers.

Agree we need a balanced team, and also on amor. I'm sure he can play for someone but not good enough for me

Wouldn't disagree with any of those but would add Bailey. He's shown nothing this year that Singleton couldn't do and hardly been on the pitch. If not Singleton then Amor. Bailey is just as much dead wood as all the others you have mentioned.

Can't disagree. It's not a pretty picture for the remainder of this season - [iat least[/i - is it ?

Is bailey OOC at the end of this year?

yeah he is.

1. Brent Webb (2011)
[i4. Keith Senior (2011)
[/i8. Kylie Leuluai (2011)
10. Jamie Peacock (2011)
14. Ali Lauitiiti (2011)
[i16. Ryan Bailey (2011)
17. Ian Kirke (2011)[/i
18. Luke Burgess (2011)
31. Callum Casey (2011)

Ones in bold are the ones I think will leave.

Players on contract that could leave. Italics is maybe.

9. Danny Buderus (2012) (Quota)
15. Ben Cross (2012) (Quota)

How the hell did we finish up with 4 props all of contract at the same time? That is shockingly bad management of contracts...

And that surprises you? considering how we have been managed for last 2 years, and how our sister club have been managed.

To be fair on this one. I would guess the club expected better from Amor, and saw Burgess has been a cornerstone for years to come before having his head turned. Therefore leaving their options open on the rest.

Ahem - I think you'll find there are five on that list (as of this season anyway..)

I expect that Burgess and Bailey will leave, as well as Kirke, Ali and maybe Webb and Senior.
I personally would move Delaney into second row, and sign a new centre, a new prop and a young half back (is what we need).
We have the likes of Amor and Ambler, and also Singleton who is captaining the Academy, who i reckon will replace JP in a couple of years, considering JP wants to play in the WC, i think we should offer him 2 years. I think to replace the likes of Kirke we have youngsters coming through the Academy such as Jarred Stewart and Dan Smith.
So we only really need 3 signings, from overseas maybe Brent Kite, otherwise im not too sure what other players we should be looking at.
Im hoping Hetherington, last year when he went down under, managed to sign someone for next season, but im not holding my breath..

I do love this constant optimism that Amor and Ambler will somehow be able to step up and command regular places in the 17 next season. Neither have particularly stood out for Quins or Wakefield respectively, and it's a big step up from being a bit-part player at a small club to starting every week for one with aspirations of winning trophies.

I would say you are right with Amor. Just can't see him every making it. But with Ambler I think has shown enough over last couple of seasons to show he would be at least equal to what we have now.

Looking at your squad the priorities to me look in the backrow, threequarters and maybe at prop depending on who leaves. It'll be interesting to see how SL manage to recruit from the NRL with their salary cap rising.

To be honest, if it's culture you want to change, a shift to onew in which the attitude of people like JJB was prevalent would be no bad thing.

On squad building, if the young backs we've got coming through can stay fit then I think we've got a dangerous backline. Maybe another centre wouldn't go amiss, but only if you can bring in something that's a real improvement on what we've got. If we were to stick with the likes of Hardaker, BJB, Watkins then some experience and leadership could be worth looking at (NB, this needn't mean a 35 year-old Aussie). I wouldn't say no to a change of scenery at half back, which is no criticism of McGuire or Burrow (it'd be McGuire I'd keep) - I rate both and I'm not jumping on the Burrow-slating bandwagon - but perhaps a new direction is needed. An organiser with a really good kicking game.

In the pack we have plenty of youth, plenty of OAPs (relatively) but perhaps a change of personnel is needed. If Singleton, Pitts, Amor and Ambler etc can realise their potential and be ready to be regulars next year, then no problem. If they need another year of being rotated then we may need to bring some new faces in. I might argue that Hauraki has been useless and has a lot to prove to a lot of people for the rest of the year, Kirke may now have outlived his usefulness (and he has been more useful than some would like to admit) and there are questions over whether Ali's body will still do what he used to do (if he can get 100% fit I'd keep him in a heartbeat, but he hasn't been fully fit for a very long time).

In all cases, I don't like change for change's sake, so any of the above are reliant on being able to bring the right quality in. Also, should a really top-class player become available at the right price in any position, it's always worth looking at.

Star quality has been lacking in many recent signings. Looking back five or so years, Ellis was signed and soon after Peacock - both were top notch international players with no risk (the sort of risk when signing players from Oz), and both performed as expected and contributed to the successful years.
Players like e.g. Kirke can fill in nicely around talent like that, hence 3 GF rings for him even though he wasn't a leader or star performer - you need players like him with the salary cap.
Recent problems have centred around trying to rely too much on the home grown talent - probably only Ryan Hall and Danny Maguire have reached that international standard, and arguably Rob Burrow, otherwise there have been few quality additions to the squad. The overseas additions have not been good, and the marquee signing Buderus hasn't been hugely consistent and not appeared to be a real leader.
One has to suspect that there are too many players on too much money who aren't performing to the level required now, mainly due to age/injury.
Getting people of the right quality and attitude is not an easy job - there aren't endless players available.
The coaching situation is a worry, not forgetting the rush that the previous coach left in. You see the likes of Maguire at Wigan, Brown and Tony Smith make impact quite quickly when they took over their respective clubs - our man has made an impact, but sadly it has been quite a negative one, with flimsy defence (never a good sign) and obviously over ambitious attack.
So - a new coach probably and more star quality players please!

I'm not sure our attack is inherently over-ambitious, it's more that the ambition comes out without earning the platform to do it from first. You have to do the hard graft, get yourelves on the front foot and earn the right to do the flash stuff. We seem unwilling or unable to do that at the moment.

Agreed - probably not making myself clear - I can't think of many successful teams who have simply thrown the ball about from the word go and simply managed to out-score the oppo. Leeds' GF showings would be testament to doing some hard graft and creating chances off the back of it - the current style seems a long way from that!