Vickery is not the only player who has been poor, I think that is the issue. You replace wing, who is next on the hit list?

Vickery has been pretty terrible since he arrived, but that's not the reason we are on this losing streak.

It all starts (or ends) at 9. The hooker should be calling the forwards onto the ball at pace, something we don't do, and without this direct forward momentm everything else becomes rushed or panic football. The ball from dummy half needs to be crisp to the forwards, or halfbacks who then have the time to execute a planned play, but we don't have this either. For a long time we have pretty much relied on a piece of individual brilliance to make a break, rather than structure and movement off the ball, and as the players become older and slower this brilliance becomes less likely.

Regardless of the silverware we have won over the last years, look at Wigan who are constantly threatening with their style of play. Their problem has been the quality of player they have had, not the way they play the game.

We need to play from a bit deeper with the forwards, bringing them onto the ball, solve the problem at 9 so we get quick accurate service, then the other players will immediately look a lot better.

Wingers are icing on the cake, not the cake itself...

This thread is not blaming Vickery for the four losses. Tvoc's post is spot on.

The only reason Vickery will play next week is because McDermott has signed him and chosen him as his first choice after BJB and will never admit he is wrong. Once McDermott has decided who he likes and dislikes, he doesn't change his opinion. McShane should be the starting 9 and Vickery should be nowhere near the team.

Juan comparing Vickery's appalling play to Hall's error is extremely daft. Hall getting trapped in his in goal was down to a good fast kick. Vickery's run was ridiculous, did he think the tryline was the touchline? Vickery is not safe under the kick, he is not safe once he retrieves the kick, he has no speed, no power and his positional play and defence is poor but apart from that he's a good player.

I agree with Batley - partly because I've said it before, but also because its so basic that I think it sometimes gets overlooked. Brad Fittler said exactly the same thing on TV this morning - without accurate quick passing from acting half you'll always struggle to score tries.

Burrow can be very dangerous from acting half, but his passing from there is not consistently up to scratch. That causes receivers to have to watch the ball they get far more closely, which slows them down - even when the ball is half decent, never mind misdirected.

As for Vickery, I don't have a problem with him being dropped. I'd say he's had enough chances now - far more than others before him in fact. But scapegoating him when players who can do much better are playing just as badly is missing the point.

Despite the rhetoric of Juan and a couple of others, nobody that I've noticed is claiming that Leeds's problems are down to Vickery. I'm sure everyone on this board wishes him well even if they have no confidence that he'll do well. However the fact that he's in the team can be seen as a symptom of Leeds's problems (dwindling quality of recruitment, questionable selections and tactics over the regular season), rather than the cause of it, and I think that's how it's been called. He's not been scapegoated, he's just been judged.

Those with longer memories will shudder to recall Mark Wilkes and Rex Terp, backpackers who chanced their way into a Leeds lineup. The difference there was that 1) Leeds were a semi-pro club playing in front of 6k gates with dirt-cheap tickets, and 2) It was clear after one game to anyone who'd watched Rugby before that Terp and Wilkes were nowhere near top-league standard and they were never seen again. Joe Vickery has somehow played 10 times. This isn't his fault, but it is *someone's* fault and really shouldn't be happening at a club like Leeds.

Vickery is the equivalent of a people carrier in a formula 1 race

I wouldn't go that far.

Renault once put an F1 engine in an Espace.

Great amount of bullying on this thread from lots of folk who have never played the game, he's a backup winger, doing his best which hey might not be enough.

If it ain't then out illustrious coach has a decision to make!!

TBH you might find that most of the folk who post on here have actually played the game - some to a very high standard indeed.

Agree let's leave the lad alone now
I'm e at my job too but don't have a forum reminding me all the time

He missed the tackle on the man that ran more than half the length of the field.



He could have tackled him.



It was very poor play and the excuses you have given are equally poor. He also looked totally bewildered when taking the tap off on the 20m. He appeared to be very slow thinking and out of his depth to Sinfield's disgust. Eventually he tapped off with his back to the opposition and lobbed the ball to Clarkson who was bundled back of the 20m line. Great stuff from a "real hooker"



He fumbled and lost it when attempting to playing the ball. And Wigan scored on the next set



Perhaps you could try apportioning blame, if blame is your game, to the out of form players who have failed to continue the good run of performances under the same coach.

That's horrible!

hall did not miss the tackle. he jumped to take the catch. once lineham caught it he had a head start.

For the first try Hall ran out of the line and missed the tackle. The player he missed ran half the length of the pitch before passing to another who passed to the scorer as Burrow tackled him.

For their second try Hall was out jumped by their young winger and Hardaker showed a poor attitude in giving up as Vickery ran futher and faster to make the tackle but too late to prevent the try.

The first try Hall blocked off the attack using the overlap but his inside defence was poor in not defending it.

Trying to make out like Hall was anywhere near as bad as Vickery is silly.

Rex Terp continues to get a mention alongside Vickery and the likes of Mark Wilkes. He actually played for St George for a few years, including a Grand Final off the bench. Mark Wilkes would have struggled to get a game in the Queensland Cup.

Hall didn't miss the tackle. I could explain again exactly what happened but I fear you will only choose to ignore it .... again ..... so no point really. If anyone missed the tackle that led to the first Hull try it was Moon.

Hull had four men on Hall and Moon, I don't think they had a chance to stop that break, the last play the ball Leeds had 3 defenders marking two on the short side and the rest of the team made little to no effort to slide across.

Yep, still wasn't as bad as the light finger tickling by JJB for the Crooks try from the now obligatory Sinfield cross field invite.

I know Tony, although strictly speaking it was on Burrow and Hall once Heremaia got on the outside of Moon and I explained all that on the previous page (sorry, it's now page 7) in the post Juan was replying to but he's chosen to ignore what Hall was expected to do and did in that situation. Thanks all the same.

Just read your post on page 7, I have to agree



changing the subject, when was the last time we lost 4 in a row?

Quote ="Tony Soprano"Just read your post on page 7, I have to agree'" Perhaps Juan can explain what Hall was supposed to do any different to what he did in that situation and why the winger was left to face such an overlap in numbers and so early in the game before fatigue can be factored in as any part of the excuse. As I said earlier Moon gets caught looking in (ball watching) as the defence is sliding out then he overspeeds in cover allowing McDonnell to easily cut back and beat him on his inside shoulder after Hall had done his job of covering the 4th tackle kick and then forcing the man back inside while preventing the ball getting out wide to the overlap. Quote ="Tony Soprano"changing the subject, when was the last time we lost 4 in a row?'" Posted two days ago here : viewtopic.php?f=17&t=500492&tsmp=1370271204&start=484 You'll note the similarity between that set of fixtures in 2006 and the ones we've just had and who is up next.

Quote ="Tony Soprano"Just read your post on page 7, I have to agree'" Perhaps Juan can explain what Hall was supposed to do any different to what he did in that situation and why the winger was left to face such an overlap in numbers and so early in the game before fatigue can be factored in as any part of the excuse. As I said earlier Moon gets caught looking in (ball watching) as the defence is sliding out then he overspeeds in cover allowing McDonnell to easily cut back and beat him on his inside shoulder after Hall had done his job of covering the 4th tackle kick and then forcing the man back inside while preventing the ball getting out wide to the overlap. Quote ="Tony Soprano"changing the subject, when was the last time we lost 4 in a row?'" Posted two days ago here : viewtopic.php?f=17&t=500492&tsmp=1370271204&start=484 You'll note the similarity between that set of fixtures in 2006 and the ones we've just had and who is up next.

Hall was also left exposed another occasion in the 1st half and if McDonnell had dummied first then given it to Lineham instead of Hall reading the pass, then it could have been worse

At the PTB that led to Hull's first try, Hall was laying deep, perhaps to cover any kick that Hull may make. As the ball was moved wide Hall join the line late and seeing an overlap coming up decided to come out of the line and take out their centre man and ball as he received thhe ball. He was just a fraction late in, perhaps as he was late joining the line, and was only able to touch the centre with an outstretched hand and was easily brushed off as the centre moved inside him on his long run down the field. An in-form Hall would have taken man and ball in a crash tackle. But as I say his timing is off at present and he missed the tackle. Not fully his fault but his miss was a big contribution.

With regard to Moon there was just a hint of obstruction as contact was made with a Hull player which allowed their man to take an inside line and wrong foot several Leeds players.

Look at the VT or the match highlights on the Leeds website.

I don't think there's any need for me to review the incident again as I doubt it will have altered from when I did so for the detailed post of the try I made on page 7 of this thread.

If I went wrong with that description you should perhaps take this opportunity to say so.

Seems to me you're pretty close to repeating what I said while adding nothing fresh except calling Shannon McDonnell the Hull centre which of course he isn't.