Everything was in place to achieve that success. Everything is not in place now to repeat that success. As I said anyone who thinks we have not gone backwards in every structure within the club under McDermotts reign is naive. Trophy's as shown are a short term measurement, challenging is a longer term. It is done Job now for this club to be pulled back to that status. Hetherington should also take his responsibility, as he oversaw it, just as he got credit for the success bit which he started.

2 players/leaders who were almost impossible to replace retired at the same time. In a salary capped sport I doubt there's any coach in the world who could sustain success year upon year. Be realistic!

Anyone who thinks we are a top 4 side that's been a bit unlucky with injuries etc. is fooling themselves. Those early season performances (not just results) showed how poor a team we were. No structure, leadership or cohesion across the team with the ball and shambolic, often gultless defence - particularly in the middle - without it. The nature of many of our losses indicates that Leeds finished exactly where they should have finished in the league table. The way we played made good players look awful and exposed ordinary and unfit members of the squad for what many already knew they were - passengers. What really disappointed me this season though were the excuses trotted out by those at the club. The victim culture where circumstances had made things difficult. I must have heard "with all the things we've been through" rolled out during every interview. It's not what anyone wants to hear and it gives an excuse for terrible individual and team performances.
You also have to wonder what the hell is going on with youth development, how desperately have we needed a hooker for the last few years - even with Aiton at the club we needed a hooker as he was hardly ever healthy, why haven't we managed to produce anyone who can defend in the middle and work dummy half? Is there any strategy in place to supply the club with first team players it needs or has everyone given up trying?

We have some very good players, what we haven't got is a way of putting that talent into a team performance because the good players we have are not those who create stuff and make it all work as 13 men. We knew we were going to lose our 6 our 9 and our pack leader, the effect of that has been to expose the coaches abilities for what they are and the limitations of some of the forwards. Then our MOS decides to step down rather than step up.

It's simple, we're not very good at the moment. Expecting things to change without doing anything is remedial. We talk as if injuries won't be an issue next season, when Delaney, McGuire, JJB, Ablett, Burrow will all be one older. Stevie Ward hasn't come back yet - this is very worrying and Segeyaro is not actually guaranteed to stay. We could very easily be in exactly the same position squad wise next season.

Poor youth development, not running an A team and developing replacements or options for key positions can be laid at the door of GH, I think he does have to take some responsibility. But if we approach next season with the attitude that this year was just a "blip" based on beating a massively under strength Wigan team and Hull late in this season then prepare for more crap dished up. If it's not completely obvious that McD has run his course at Leeds (and I thought that after the GF last October), then the people who make decisions at the club need to rejoin reality.

BM was a perfect fit for the last few years. someone who doesn't over coach, like wane, and who was prepared to let his team play what was in front of them without restricting them. you can't argue with what he won.
however we now need a rebuild and the side needs structure, shape and leadership and I don't think he's the right coach for that. not criticising his ability just the kind of coach he is

That's how I see it. I thought he should have looked to step down (or up), at the end of last season. Although I'm not sure him being at the club in an alternative role would have worked with a new coach, but that may be not giving him credit, it could work really well.

Nonsense. If you are sacrificing success as a short-term measurement and focusing on challenging long term. You arent going to be in your job for very long.

That you think these systems and structures have been shown to be going backwards over the last 5 years, despite huge success is just crazy. The fact is that the past 6 years of success arent undone by this years struggle. That can never be taken away. It is proof positive of a system working. It is unarguable, indelible, incontrovertible proof that what we were doing works.

That some think this should have been changed or sacrificed on the promise of jam tomorrow is sporting naivete writ large.

exactly, we have a bad 17 games coming off a tough, but very successful season, we lost 3 big characters and two RL legends, we had a disrupted off and pre season. and introduced a lot of youngsters who got game time.

And even then we managed to get only 4 points less than Les Catalans did last year, 6 points less than Hull did, and 8 points less than Wire.

How many grand finals will Leeds have reached in the last four years when this season is up?

I would suggest McDermott inherited a good side but has failed to develop the squad and 2015 was a blip in a downward spiral that has continued this season.

The squad isn't strong enough because the youth structure isn't producing the quality it should - that is down to McDermott who is in charge of all things coaching

It will be on 1 grand final, 1 lls and 2 challenge cup wins. Which is a pretty good return, especially when we remember you specifically cherry picked that time frame to be as bad as it could be.

That's why they get paid the big bucks - to make the correct decisions - at the end of this season Leeds will have reached one GF in four seasons is that really good enough for a club the size of Leeds?

In the last 4 seasons leeds have won 4 trophies. Would I take the same ratio over the next 4 seasons? Yes.

Why do people always switch the goal posts to suit their argument. If leeds had made 4 grand finals over the last 4 years and won none you wouldn't be on here crowing about how many grand final they'd made you'd be saying ''leeds have won no grand finals over the last years, is that really good enough for a club the size of leeds?''

Wigan and saints have both contested more grand final than leeds over the last 20 years.

But who has won more titles? Leeds.

Can you answer my question please from the bottom of page 6? I'm not agreeing or disagreeing with you at this moment in time BTW, so don't get defensive and dodge the question by getting me to justify how they haven't gone backwards. You said they have gone backwards in all structures.

Please justify that comment with some more detail. what structures? how are they worse?

The thing thrown against McDermott for his first few GF wins around 2013 on here was that it wasn't his squad and some said they'd only give him credit and say it was his team if he won post 2014 (some did, some didn't). Whilst the likes of Sinfield, Peacock, McGuire etc. kept going the squad changed a lot and we had 7 first time Grand Finalists in the 17 that won in 2015 which is a lot of change by Leeds' terms.

From the end of McClennen's reign we've seen

Webb - Hardaker
Donald - BJB - Briscoe
Senior - Moon
Bailey, Kirke, Burgess - Cuthbertson, Garbutt, Singleton
Smith/Delaney at centre - Watkins
Lauitiiti - Ward

So he had to do quite a bit of change actually to the squad which got the treble from when he first started and GH hasn't exactly been as adventurous with his recruitment as he was around the mid 00's with the likes of Lautiiti, Webb, Peacock, Ellis. Some of that not helped obviously by the strength of the SC in the NRL.




When did he actually take over all things coaching though and wouldn't you agree it would then take time to see the changes in how much youth is coming through.

Arguing that until this year McDermott's record was poor is plain stupid. Under par on average in the league, but more than made up for by winning competitions. Even the under par league standings I'd suggest was partly down to having a hugely experienced 'been there done that' squad which always believed it could come good when it counted.

Having said that, I'm entirely with DHM on this year. The league table may say 9th, but for the vast majority of the time we were bottom. You only have to trawl back through the 'highlights' of many of our games and you'll see utter garbage being dished up, especially defensively. The team didn't just play poorly, it was barely functioning as a unit.

Players should take some responsibility, but in the end its McDermott's job to make sure they deliver. He quite simply didn't. Despite all the injuries almost every week we put out a team with enough quality to at least give the opposition a game. Instead we were embarrassingly bad in so many games its hard to keep track. One game like that a year could be forgiven, but multiple times and at home as well?

Sadly I think the victim mentality will hold sway, as will the natural follow on that 2016 was just a blip. We'll see some minor tinkering with the squad, maybe one signing to appease the masses and the rest as you were. I'd hazard a guess that part of the reason for that is that GH as much as anyone seems to have bought into the 2016 sob story - possibly because its easier than admitting that his he's messed up his role in recruiting and if stories are correct junior development and coaching in general.

I have some sympathy in the case of halfbacks, as Mcguire and Sutcliffe showed last year that they can be a pretty effective pair, unfortunately though, there has not been a game this season where both has been 100% fit. Mcguire getting injured in the first game (which he seemingly hasn't yet recovered from) was probably the worst thing that could happen, especially when Sutcliffe himself was coming back from a long term injury.
If we had signed someone like Wallace (who we were linked to) in the off season and as a result Sutcliffe was picked up by someone like Hull promising he would likely start, and Wallace didn't settle well, then we would similarly be bashing Mcdermott for letting go of a potential star for a short term fix

However, I have no sympathy for Mac in other areas
The main one is that we went into a season with only one specialist hooker in the 25 man squad (who himself was unproven in SL and injury prone), and we have so few hookers in the academy that we have converted a prop to 9 in the 19s
Not buying even a championship level hooker as backup was a massive oversight

The time frame was selected because it is the most current and the most reflective of McDermott's growing influence over matters.

Would you say the team is in great shape right now?

There were 8 players from 2009 that were still around in 2015 and that included all the key players

I take your last point he will have had a big say in youth development the day he took charge - that is part of his remit I think he took sole charge in 2011 since which time only Ward has emerged as a top quality youngster through the academy system. Leeds now have more overseas players than ever - they could field an entire pack of ex NRL players - why is this? There doesn't look like many youngsters knocking at the door - Cameron Smith/Lilley possibly? How long does it take?

So in a 25 man squad over two thirds had changed. That's a decent amount over a 6 year period. JJB hardly played and the likes of Aiton, Cuthbertson and Ward all had bigger and better seasons than the roles played by Burrow, Leuluai and Ablett. I think the general consensus last year was our best 5 performers were (in no particular order) Ward, Cuthbertson, Hardaker, Aiton and Watkins. The only one of the old guard perhaps who came into contention was McGuire.



Having a say in 2011 isn't the same as what is being suggested now that he's taken over it.

I mean aren't the posters who follow the academy closely saying the 16's are the best batch we've had for a very long time? Wouldn't that be a good sign of the changes started to show something?

people say, and I can't confirm it, that this and last years batch are better as BM has been relieved of his job with the academy

So if Brian was "in charge" of the Academy, what was Barrie doing in his role as head of youth development between 2009 and 2014?

Yes 2/3rds have changed but the culture setters i.e. Sinfield, Peacock, JJB, McGuire and Burrow were all constants - do you think the new players adjusted to their way of doing things or the other way round?

They say that about every batch - the problem at Leeds is not the quality entering the system its the quality that emerges at the end of the system.

person
Without a rugby manager - Brian McDermott as the most senior rugby will have been setting the playing/coaching development agenda - could be the other McDermott was simply following instructions?

No it isnt. It was picked because if you had looked at 5 years or the entirety of McDermotts reign then it would have looked even better, and had you gone shorter it would have looked better.

Right now the team isnt in too bad shape. Has won 5 of 6 including beating 2 sides at the top of the league.

Any more goalpost shifting???

We've gone from you saying McDermott failed to develop the side.....until it was pointed out how 2/3rd's of it has changed.

To all the key players were the ones who were there back in 2009....until it was pointed out to you who our best players were last year (our 2 MOS nominees from the McDermott era for example)

To now "oh but they were the culture setters".....that they were but that wasn't your original point about McDermott failing to develop the squad. It would've been quite easy for a coach to come in and mess up that culture but he's gone with it and it's been used as an even bigger focus point. He also kept the likes of those culture setters in JJB, Leuluai, McGuire, Burrow going into 2015 when many, yourself included felt the old guard should've been moved on a few times during his reign especially at the end of 2014.

Nobody is goal shifting just debating your points as you raise them - some of which I agree with

I would agree I would have moved on some Leuluai for certain - don't think I ever said move Danny McGuire on



Changing personnel doesn't mean developing the side - have our attacking structures evolved under McDermott are we any better close to the line than we were under McClennan?

So how was McDermott going to mess with the culture - his track record at London was abysmal he was hardly in a position to say "come on lads I know how to make things better look at my past successes!!" more like the other way i.e. Brian come with us and we will make you look good.

The best players last year were in part your opinion what part of Cuthbertson's development was McDermott responsible for exactly? The end of the 2015 season had the old guard stamped all over it - the way they ground the victory out against Wigan in the final was no different to 2004, 2008,2009,2012 it was as if somebody just replayed a tape - if you think Cuthbertson/Hardaker were pulling the strings at the end of 2015 I think you are delusional.