You have a point there added to which the Australians have the advantage of a true "national" game with the high intensity league plus a SSO series to lead to Test status.

The wider the base the higher the peak of the pyramid of achievement

Sadly its an undenyable FACT

Neither of which is available to the SL so we will always struggle at Test level IMHO.

Always is a long time. RL needs to look at it's location "to use marketing parlance" in the sporting arena at large. The "space" it occupies, even geographically is very small. However the game is being driven forward by certain people. And I hope in time that the base of the pyramid widens and the peak rises.
I also unfortunately see the base of the Australian pyramid narrowing as Soccer takes root.

Ah yes but that defensive line was incredibly slow and disorganised by todays standards due to the forwards back then looking like...well...me.

Fortunately there's still a place in professional sport for people like me, its called rugby union.

Yes your right...never say never.

Yes at 57 I think I could still play at least half a game of RU.



On your first point you are also correct but I was imagining the current SL fitness levels in regard to the 5M rule.

What a great thread.

Perhaps a reason why the current England team is so short of gamebreaking halfbacks and threequarters is exactly because of the pre-occupation with a quick ptb over the past 13 years?

We simply haven't needed to produce players with the skill set to break a well organised defence because we only needed a quick series of scoots from dummy half to men in support.

Now that there is more time to hold down at the ptb players are facing more of a challenge to break defences. As G1 says it'll take a long time before we develop players with the skills to break defences but we need to be patient.

Simply going back to a quick ptb wouldn;t be any help to the England side now as players in the NRL have already developed their attacking skills anyway.

I hope referees ingnore the arguments from Saints fans and Andy Wilson and continue with the current interpretations.

And what incentives the quick PTB followed by a forward roll over the gain line....the 10M Rule

Slow down the PTB and reduce the 10M defence perhaps ????.

Players will then need to learn the skills we lack.

As Richie has said it seems to be working by simply slowing down the ptb. If we find more blow out scorelines then fine, reduce the 10m but I think that it's ok at the moment provided the ptb is kept at the current speed.

Like you players and coaches will have to catch on soon enough and we'll see players finding other ways to break defences rather than relying on getting a "roll on" with some scoots.

Absolutely. We have spent an awful lot of effort to modify our game to penalise defenders and make attacking easier. Good teams will still have more attacking options and more pace, but we have been rewarding and developing players with a different skill set over the SL era. When we came up against the rediculously slow PTB at the World Cup we were shown up for the lack of creativity we have in attack.

Good defence needs skillful attacking players to break it down and skillful attacking play is good to watch - as is good defence.
When we had the 5m rule the ball would fly everywhere. We did make a lot of mistakes but we had skill that even the Aussies were admiring of when they came over to play with our clubs in the 80's.

And as for the comments on the final from Andy Wilson, I just don't get what some poeple want.

On the international stage I have recently thought we were woefully short in the kicking department.

On saturday 3/4 tries came from kicks, maybe the top players are starting to develop, which underlines the importance of high intensity play-offs, when teams are solid in defence and don't allow you to walk right through them.

Wilson probably wants a game with a few scintillating tries thrown in that he's able to describe in a few concise phrases. Outlining a brilliant technical defensive effort, spread throughout a game, in a paragraph or two is probably beyond him (and most other writers, come to that). The lack of technical coverage the game receives in the national media is appalling. This may be due to editorial pressure, but if it isn't, then Wilson's not doing the game any favours by dismissing tight, defensive games in the manner he has.

So we've had a slow play the ball this season and the net result on average points scored has been what?

3 points.

(SL Regular Rounds only comparison)

1996 - 56
1997 - 47
1998 - 44
1999 - 46
2000 - 49
2001 - 52
2002 - 50
2003 - 48
2004 - 50
2005 - 55
2006 - 49
2007 - 46
2008 - 49
2009 - 46

All that miserable little tw#t wants is a season where his beloved wigan win something,he's just a whinging drone who will chelp about our sport at every oppurtunity.

Agreed. It's a major bugbear of mine. I think TV commentary and news could be seriously improved in this area.

I remember when John Monie was introduced as Ray French's co commontator in the late 80s and it was a revelation compared with his predecessor's (Murphy) contribuition. We need another leap forward like that on TV and in print, I'm not sure that most journos really understand the modern game.

I see tvoc's stats confirm that average points are lowering. I guess we need to give it more than a year to see if it's really working in the way we want. I just hope we stick with it rather than changing again.

England RU has by far the widest base in RU but that FACT does not give them a higher pyramid of achievement.

A World cup win in 2003 and a World cup final in 2007. What the hell do you want from them man?

wider than whom ???????? South Africa Australia New Zealand Wales Ireland Scotland ???????

Wider than each of those according to [url=http://www.funtrivia.com/askft/Question55548.htmlthis[/url

IIRC 2003 was their only win and their first final since 1991. Given that, based on the 2003 figures, they have more than 50% more players than all the other 5 countries in the 6 nations, they don't really punch at their wiight never mind above it.

They dont have Veterans or Masters or Old Boys teams in those countries



The pro game only counts

Their only win, the cup wasn't around until 1995.

BUT, and this is a big BUT. There is a huge difference between RUGBY and Rugby Union. What the por's play is a world away from the traditional game the rest of us play. It really compare quite badly.

I remember watching them in the 1991 final against Australia. I think NZ wan the firts in 1997.

Do other countries not have amateurs.

I never understood Union and do you know what, I still don't.

Yeah I think you're right, although I reckon you meant 1987.

On the question of amateurs I'll stick my neck out a bit.

Yes they do, BUT. No other country that plays Rugby union has such a solid public school system. No other country has such an enormous programme of rugby in schools. Other countries have effective administrations that encourage the use of local clubs.

So when it comes to numbers of participants on any given weekedn the figures in the UK are massively swayed by a portion of players who have no desire to play the game but are obliged to as part of their educational development.

For a lot of people this enforced participation is actually a detractor from the Rugby playing game becuase as soon as they get out of it, they stay out. Bit like me being made to eat liver and onions/bacon. I'd rather muff Subo than do that again.

You're right re 1987 as opposed to 1997.

My argument was against the assertion thatr a wider base meant higher achievement with the statement FACT included. I just proved it wasn't the case. The intention wasn't meant as an in depth analysis of the needs of sections of society to participate in sport to further their careers but hey ho.

As far as I'm concerned, from an International game point of view, more important than building the base is to ensure that there is adequate room at the top table for the players who offer the potential, rather than relying on journeymen players from rival countries to detract from the top clubs responsibility to help develop the players that allow them to exist.