I wouldn't go so extreme as to non rolling subs straight away. I think just reducing bit by bit and seeing how it goes is ok. We did have 12, now 10......let's drop to 8 and see how that goes. Might lead to a drop of 6 and then who knows.

The talk of the 5m rule should take into account the vastly different fitness levels of players nowadays. Firstly I'm not sure it'd work nowadays because of fitness differences and secondly if the NRL doesn't see the need to change to it as well (and why would they as their league is doing fine) then we can't have an international game with different distances in defence.

You be completely summed up my feelings on it Juan. I miss the days of wingers having speed. Centres being elusive with good hands and half backs on the pitch to attack. Now, the team are just clones.

As a sport we're going nowhere. I'd love to see it on terrestrial TV and available to a bigger audience. But the product doesn't seem strong enough right now.

There's no short term answer to this

We've not often agreed about the different aspects of our great sport, but this time I couldn't have written that post better myself.

Reducing interchanges to make it even easier for the attack. Anything else? Perhaps tie defenders bootlaces together or maybe strap one arm behind their backs.

Thanks Batley. It is a big worry as the solutions may take quite a few years. Watching the recent Internationals from both codes IMO it was the rugby in the Union ones that was more fluid with much faster rucks and much better passing skills with plenty of quality threequarter play.

We need more space to create moves in. A reduction to 12 men would do this and reduce the wage bill. All tacklers should be forced to stand square at the PTB leaving space out wide this is what the ruck in Union achieves. Only recipient of a kick should be the kicker lets get back to scoring proper tries not a jumping competition in the corner.

Whilst the NRL is a long way ahead in quality, there are a lot of dull games, partly because there are so few mistakes. I've watched plenty of games where the only way a try even looked like being scored was through a kick, at least until the last ten minutes. Last year we saw some teams getting even more defensive - rather than face a 7 tackle set plenty of teams are ready to put in a nothing kick or just die with the ball on the last tackle, and focusing on getting the defence set.

For whatever reason, and whatever the solution, I'd say the game is too skewed towards rewarding defence and at times it actively penalises risk-taking in attack.

I'm not sure the small player issue could be solved without doing something really dramatic like reducing teams to 12 players. We need space on the pitch more than anything else to redress that problem.

Because everyone is risk averse with the ball. You can make meters without moving the ball around and wait for the opposition to make a mistake in their own 40. If nobody makes a mistake then nothing happens because nobody is trying to actually create anything with the ball until they get in the opponents 20. Even then you see teams (over here too) play for another set. Like when England had the Aussies on their own line and kicked to the in goal to get a repeat set on the 4th bloody tackle. I would argue that it's not defences that cut space down, it's that non of the attacking play teams use is designed to create any space, it's a chess game where you look to "gain" small increments in pitch territory from a set of tackles. you make 60 meters from 5 drives and a kick the opposition only make 50 coming back the other way. How often does it seem to be a big deal that you start a set on your own 40? Jeez, if that's all we are trying to achieve during a game it's no wonder everyone is bored $h!tless watching.

I think there is too much looking back and saying wasn't it so much better in those days.

If you watch older stuff on youtube some of the defence is shambolic to the point of laughable.

Yes there were some very skilfull players but at the pace the game was being played and the terrible defence there was plenty of time to display those skills.

The old days any player with real pace had a distinct advantage - these days they all have real pace even the props.

Kallum Watkins will be as quick as 95% of all players who have ever played the game and he weighs near 16 stone - the players are just bigger, fitter and faster and that makes space on the field a premium.

I would agree a lot of players are becoming clones of a 6' 16st tackling machine - the view of modern coaches appears to be a damage limitation exercise i.e. If we don't conceed we cannot lose rather than if we score more than the opponents we also can't lose.

The quality of british coaches is also at an all time low and until that is rectified we will be serve up ragular helpings of turgid one dimensional rugby played by elite athlete that haven't even mastered the basics.

Contested scrums were a mess the hookers were almost laying flat on the ground with their feet outside of the scrum - bring them back doesn't seem to add any value as for the 5 metre rule you will see teams making negative yardage.

To sum up better coaching - watch the Aussies yesterday they did the basics really well - RL is a simple game that has a beauty in its simplicity

That's an accurate assessment of the modern game. Of the two games I watched over the week end, the all blacks -Irish game plus the Aussie - kiwi match.
One thing that impressed me was the Aussie and all blacks passing game. Both sets of players seemed comfortable with the ball, all the passing was crisp and accurate. If you move the ball quickly with support players moving into good running lines eventually you will create scoring opportunities .
Surely that's not too hard to coach is it ?.

Try doing that with the Aussie defence up and in your face. I want to see more passing too but the defences have got so much better it's virtually impossible unless we go down to 12 men.

We've done it before!!

I can't agree that the handling is better in RU. Yes the top fly halfs and scrum halfs can throw good balls, generally the rest of them are awful ball in hand - particularly the forwards who look like they're trying to empty a boat full of water with their arms when they're passing.
You've also got to take into account that the defences in Union, whilst not back 10, are certainly not putting any line speed on.

I'd also say that the passes they have to make are often easier. They aren't having to make the same instant decisions as RL halves do as to which of the 3 or 4 runners to pass to and to do it so close to an advancing defence.

What does impress me in Union is some of the offloading off the floor. When done well it really speeds their game up. Though I suppose is a bit of an anachronism in their rules given than the defenders are supposed to immediately release the attacker.

I feel a bit sick now.

I agree with a lot of this. The Aussies we saw this weekend are just comfortably better than generations before. They are bigger, faster, stronger, more skilful, better prepared, better trained, better coached, with better tactics, better depth.

I think he NRL is of the highest standard an RL league has been and provides plenty of entertainment. I don't think there is a great deal wrong with the game itself, I think there needs to be tweaks and adjustments rather than real some of the more fundamental changes suggested here.

Our problem over here is that we simply don't have the depth of player, we have two few quality players and squads which are too small and players who play too many games. Our problems are with how we bring players in to the game and through in to the first team an keeping them there, rather than the rules on the field.

Saying that, Ive said before I would be interested to see the line-out replace the scrum as that would give us a competitive set-piece without all the nonsense of competitive scrums.

I do get what some are saying about generally falling out with the game, as a Hull fan of 30 plus years , I've seen great times and some really dark days. It isn't the team I fell out of love with, it is the brand, RL in general. The craft and guile has largely disappeared and you now have wingers who are the size of, if not much bigger, than props used to be. Players like Long, Topliss, Millward,Schofield and Gregory , to name a few, were entertainers, Matty Smith is by some regarded as the best scrum half our English game has and , with all due respect, would not get anywhere near a top team of the previous eras.
This season, despite my having a season pass, I have found better things to do than watch muscle "outmuscle" muscle, and Hull have had a great season , so I think I can sympathise with a lot of opinion on here.
For what it is worth, amateur RL is thriving, in terms of interest and enthusiasm from fans, we need to bring back the guile and craft, how we do that is for people more clever than I to work out.

Defence looks better because attack is more predictable. You barely even see support runners now when forwards hit the ball up. Simple way to stop the defensive line getting set early is to offload. If you do that a few times then suddenly defenders not involved in the tackle can't retreat and get set.
I've seen a lot of Aussie games in the past, Origin included, where it's a boreathon for 70 minutes then the team losing suddenly starts actually playing with the ball. Defences suddenly look stretched and disorganised.
I maintain that as long as you can make good ground with 5 hit ups and a kick then that's how teams will play, safe, percentage rugby.

The ball moves a lot more in union because you can't make ground up the middle when big, 18 stone forwards, are set at the back foot of the ruck. You have to attack edges. There's also patterns that are designed to leave props or slow locks out wide defending space.

Re RU it's interesting to note the number of ex-RL players who coach defence in RU.
Anthony Farrell & Sean Edwards being two prime examples.

Phil Larder being one of the first with Clive Woodward. Some of the same techniques for holding up the tackled player, thus slowing the speed of ruck ball are applicable from league.

Steadman, Tait, Ford, Forshaw, Lowes, the aussie Phil Blake , to name but a few the list is very long.
Eddie Jones used Jason Ryle (?) for the autumn internationals.

Ford though was seen as being innovative with back play. Bath pre last season, were known for exciting back play and favouring an open running game. To have him coaching defence in the England set up and Farrell coaching the backs under Lancaster was bizarre.
Looks like Ford Junior is off to Sale end of season. He's bailing out of his contract. Word is he was mightily pee'd off at how Dad was treated.

A seriously good player if you ask me and one I would love to see play league (though fat chance of that). Sale seem to be splashing out a fair bit right now.

He's getting there. Starting to make really good decisions and control games very well. There are other clubs linked (Leicester have been mentioned) but Sale does look the likely destination. Bath are furious apparently.

DHM - re throwing the ball around, it depends how you do it. Literally passing right to left and back again will do zero against a good defence. What you need is a willingness to do it, coupled with a willingness to accept the risk involved (i.e. dropped balls, intercepts etc). You also need to train to play that way (as Ipswich did in the Qld Cup). Otherwise you'll see plenty of lobbed passes to players standing still.

Agree.

Its funny how people sometimes can't see the wood for the trees. The Ipswich side was successful because they played high risk attacking rugby as a group. Following their success a fair few players signed with NRL sides. Most have done nothing, because what made it work was the fact it was a team strategy. It had very little to do with most of the individual players.