Even if our levels are similar to last year,maybe other teams have improved theirs and why we are the second worst.

After this weekend its back to worst.

Taking that point though, the number of penalties per season (for all clubs combined) has varied by a huge amount. So...

...this is the percentage of penalties conceded by Leeds, of all penalties awarded in the season:

2003 8.80%
2004 7.29%
2005 6.98%
2006 6.71%
2007 7.80%
2008 8.23%
2009 8.65%

I wonder how any of that would compare to Graham Murray's Leeds?

There seems a general assumption that penalties should be eradicated but there's a reasonable case to say that penalties are the price you pay for contesting the ruck, being quick off the mark defensively and tackling with aggression. Its finding the balance that's key.

I doubt wether that'd be worth it there appear to be far more penalties nowadays than in murrays era.

I know its a bit different, but at the level we play at, we start the game looking to test the ref, and see what we can get away with at the breakdown. The potential price is a few penalties. The potential benefit is an extra second to organise your line, each tackle. Makes it worth trying.

However, the players should be able to know what they can and can't get away with by 10 mins into the match. Most of the holding down/interfering is just dumb, and killing us

Indeed.

The major flaw with Puig Aubert's attempts to cloud the obvious with statistics is it doesn't show whether Leeds were winning or losing the penalty count and that is the key.

If leeds averaged 7 penalties against a game under Smith it's not an issue if we're being awarded 15 as it means we're not giving away more territory and possession to our opponents.

What we do know, courtesy of TVOC, is that in the vast majority of games under M<clennan we have LOST the penalty count.

That is where the crunch lies not in the catual numbers.

Interesting.

Naturally, I (at least) have no agenda either way. The stats are what the stats are.

The discipline of some players has improved, for others it has got markedly worse. The stats do focus on Leeds's discipline - only half of any penalty count - as that's the area the discussion and criticism has focussed on. Unless, of course, you're suggesting that the coach should be chastised for his side not being awarded enough penalties?

There are some who have forcefully proclaimed that the high penalty count is caused by the current coach; others have unwittingly and amusingly followed in their wake; and others have simply chastised him for not solving the problem even if they recognise it probably wasnt of his making.

Of course you can interpret the stats however you wish but it would seem rather disengenuous to chastise the coach for apparently not trying to solve the discipline problem when a number of his charges seem to have curbed [itheir [/ipenalties so well.

2008: I only have penalty counts for 29 of the 35 games played.

Leeds - Won 11, Drawn 3, Lost 15 (Penalties received 247, Conceded 259)

2009: Complete (All Comps)

Leeds - Won 6, Drawn 4, Lost 14 (Penalties received 165, Conceded 209)

Best post on this thread

Lock IT

Gosh, things have gotten even worse under McLennan than I imagined. That is a terrible record this year.

If only you had stats for penalty counts won/lost under Smith. I suspect they would be very illustrative.

The point I have continually made is that this team and indeed this squad of players is more than capable of success if they could stop giving themselves mountains to climb with needless handing away possession and territory through lost penalty counts.

That we are conceding far more penalties than our opponents on such an alarmingly regular basis confirms something we have discussed about the deterioration in our relationship with referees.

Winning the penalty count (and respecting possession) are massive contributory factors in winning and losing in today's super league.

The self serving statistics you showed average penalties per game didn't look half as alarming or give the true picture as TVOC's statistics showing penalty counts lost.

How you're going to persue your agenda of defending the indefensible in light of this I await with baited breath.

What makes you think that I haven't to some degree.....



[size=59..... other than my not reproducing them on here.[/size

I suspect if you had....and they countered my point....they'd have been whipped out like a shot.

You usually play a straight hand |(unlike some

) and I think you'd have recounted them even if they supported my argument.

I therefore concluded that you don't have them.

But you could compile them I bet if you had the inclination

This is TVOC you're talking about, he's always got the inclination to produces stats!

There's a bit of a chicken/egg situation here.

Are we fatigued (through small stretched squad maybe), and therefore give more penalties away, or do we give too many penalties away, which leads to more defence, and therefore get more fatigued.

Difficult question. I do remember us losing a few penalty counts at the start of the year.

In a heartbeat.



Not sure I appreciate your use of the word usually there in relation to the stats that I produce.



I have them (with gaps) going back to 2005. I know they'll support your Smith V McClennan thesis but I wouldn't let that stop me publishing as you've graciously accepted above.

I'll have a look and add what I have to the McClennan ones.

__________

Tony Smith:

2005: 36 Complete (All Comps).

Leeds - Won 20, Drawn 5, Lost 11 (Penalties received 242, Conceded 216)

2006: Counts for 32 of the 33 games played (All Comps).

Leeds - Won 12, Drawn 6, Lost 14 (Penalties received 206, Conceded 181)

2007: Counts for 24 of the 32 games played (All Comps).

Leeds - Won 9, Drawn 3, Lost 12 (Penalties received 186, Conceded 193)

Brian McClennan:

2008: Counts for 29 of the 35 games played (All Comps).

Leeds - Won 11, Drawn 3, Lost 15 (Penalties received 247, Conceded 259)

2009: Complete (All Comps)

Leeds - Won 6, Drawn 4, Lost 14 (Penalties received 165, Conceded 209)

Excellent post

Indeed.

Who'd have thunk that we'd have lost more counts than we won in 2006 & 2007? I wouldn't have, despite the evidence that discipline was slipping even then.




Bywater seems to have wised up and isn't biting even when he's been offered a 30 point start with 2 minutes to go.

Therefore, I'm going to play along.

The team's discipline this year has been poor. I think we agree on that.

Where we disagree is on where the culpability lies.

You've posted that its the coach's fault through his sending the players out too emotional. I disagree. The timing and type of penalties appears to back me up. We've later found that a number of players are conceding far fewer penalties this year than last, which again suggests the players aren't being sent out over psyched. I don't recall you or others offering any evidence to back up your theory.

I've posted my belief that its largely petulance on the part of the players that's the problem - something supported by the timing and type of penalties conceded. I don't know if you offer any acceptance of that theory. On looking at the stats I'd modify my belief - its not all the players that seem guilty of this as we've seen that several have improved records.

Irrespective of the cause, I think we'd both agree that the coach hasn't solved the problem. Where we'd differ there is that I suspect - based on those individually improved discipline stats again - that he has tried and partially succeeded; but that there remain a number of players causing problems.

Bywater has asked what you would do and your response was that you don't know - but its the coach's job. Not unreasonable, but its equally not unreasonable for us to speculate on what might be done - others have.

Most suggestions seem to be that the coach should fine or drop players.

Nobody is sure whether fines are already in place. Maybe they are but they're not working. Or maybe they're not.

In terms of dropping players, the obvious candidate is Kevin Sinfield: the worst offender, the player with the biggest down turn in discipline this year, the Captain who has become increasingly insolent to referees, and th eplayer who has publicly stated his belief that the problem is referees punishing Leeds unfairly. But can you drop your captain and goal kicker?

If you don't, and you drop someone else, what message does that send out to the squad or the Captain himself? Even if you do, who do you pick?

Kevin Sinfield 0.98
Ryan Bailey 0.85
Carl Ablett 0.71
Lee Smith 0.69
Luke Burgess 0.65
Jamie Jones-Buchannan 0.65
Danny Buderus 0.60
Brent Webb 0.56
Keith Senior 0.56
Jamie Peacock 0.55

That's the top 10. Bailey & Buderus are injured and with the current squad of players I'd have thought its very difficult to pick any of the others as sacrifial offerings.

That maybe just leaves reasoning with the players, something I'd speculate has happened already - particularly on account of a number of players having improved in this regard.

I still remember the good old days when the captain was rightly heading into Headingley immortality.





Is it a case of, where the fekwitted fans lead others (who should know better) will eventually follow?

We're actually ad idem on most issues I would think.

I did offer a suggestion to David and it was to drop the worst culprit, McGuire with 4 penalties.

I even said that may be harsh but McGuire or Sinfield would send a clear message .

You've read something that isn't there.

I am Sinfield's greatest admirer. He's already attained immortal status with me.

However, unlike others, I am balanced in my appraisal, even when it comes to my favourites and there can be no doubt that Sinfield's form is poorer (and as Puig has demonstrated, his discipline) under Mclennan than it was under Smith.

He's still a vital cog though, as my earlier post acknowledged,.

Discipline I'll accept, form I'm not so sure.

Leeds were lost without him V Hull KR and while he was ineffective at Wigan I'm guessing he was short of being fully fit.

Leeds' most fluent performances this season have come with Sinfield at halfback with McGuire at scrum half.

I didn't see the HKR game.

My first post you quoted stated "albiet still a very important one in terms of our team".

He's simply not been the dominant force in the whole league that he was under Smith's stewardship.

Stop fog knitting and leave it to the likes of DISA.

Agreed. Arguably still the most important cog in the Leeds team.



Dominant force in the whole league is not how I ever saw Sinfield no matter who was the coach at Leeds. A player recognised far more within the club than he was perceived outside of it.

If he is in any way less influential at Leeds then I'm not seeing it.

If fitness and fatigue are the problems causing penalties, with a little bit of attitude, then anyone who gives away 2 or more penalties whould be made to do extra drills in front of the rest of the team.

It shows them up in front of their mates, and gets them that little bit fitter.

Or give them an extra days rest from training as they're struggling with the effects of over training due to a short off season, early WCC campaign and a small squad size preventing rotation.

I don't think the answer is always to do more or to do it harder.