And both of which are entirely out of his control once the player crosses the line.

Unless we're saying McDermott coaches Achurch to hide, or Ablett to continually make poor reads?

Quite right and if the coach is unable to field 17 players who are not totally fit then dropping players that are not performing is also not an option. Young forwards that are not physically or mentally ready will also be classed as not fit.

The coaching off the field should minimise such things on the field. That's their job. I don't remember Ablett's poor reads being such a big problem before. If they are now, it's up to the coach to recognise what's going wrong and take steps to change it.

In my opinion, it's nonsense to say that once the players are on the pitch the coach has no responsibility for what's going on. That's why certain coaches make such a difference.

Agreed. Surely they go through video and Mac points out to certain players their shortcomings and what improvements he wants to see in coming weeks.If he has addressed this off the field to them and the players still fail to address on it, then its down to the coach to take action and the responsibility then falls squarely on his shoulders, especially if he is still allowing these players to make the same mistakes week on week by selecting them.

I may be wrong, but evidence so far this year to me points to a coach who is just going in with a wing and a prayer from game to game and that his trusted old guard of years gone by will dig him out of the hole we are in and not much is being done about things off the field.

So what value is the coach adding if it is not to improve the players he is coaching?

Which IMO is directly linked to the quality of coaching/management.

Some serious over-estimation of how much influence coaches can have over performance going on here.

Still, the alternative is to blame the players and that would never do.

The same folks blaming all our woes on the coach now are, in the main, the same ones that refused to credit him in all his winning years. Anyone who has done any coaching will be aware that some things are outside his influence. He can motivate all he likes but that will not guarantee a return of lost form eg: Hardaker, or injuries eg: McGuire, Ward, Briscoe, Hall, Cuthbertson, Moon, Ferres, etc etc etc

If the coach is solely responsible for recruitment then he can be held responsible for any imbalance in his squad but if this and the purse strings are held by others then don't blame the coach.

Unless you actually attend training sessions and team talks regularly then it is just guesswork to suggest that poor coaching is the main problem or to imply that any lack of structure on the field must also be down to the coach too. What we have witnessed for ourselves, and where we can be critical, is in player performances. Is it fair to blame the coaches for the times when players miss tackles or fail to get defensive numbers right or handling errors? Perhaps you could if the coach was unproven but we are talking about last years coach of the year who coached the team to the treble and to a record number of trophies for the club.

Now I am not saying he is blameless or has not made errors. But his record defies the hasty judgement some have made. The retirement of our key influential players has been a major factor as has been the really serious injury list which some critics are too quick to dismiss plus the worrying lack of form from some senior players. It could well be that there are other factors of which we are all in the dark at the moment.

We have seen in the last couple of matches more positive signs and now is the time to get behind the coach and team as they are going to need full support in their quest to turn the season around.

Juan- maybe you misunderstand me, if indeed this is aimed at me in anyway, but my point is more that the same players keep making the same defensive miss reads or are shirking certain responsibilities. Infact, my main issue is the defensive structure as a whole and the work at the ruck which to me, and many others on here, is quite frankly shocking and has been since the first couple of games of the year.These things ARE for the coach to address and fix up and he rightly should get the finger pointed at him imo for it not being.Nothing to do with getting on his back, i have backed Mac for years even through his rough patches and always credited him when due.If he is trying to change things then all we can assume is the players aren't listening therefore he needs to do something about it, i.e drop one or two main culprits till they do get the message. like i say, you can only go off of perception and that is what is to me.

And the players certainly aint blameless. I agree with Schoey when he said one or two need to take a look in the mirror at the performances after Easter. They did show some good grit in the win against Hull but the defence was back to shocking against Saints and the same problems keep coming up.

A could of weeks ago Achurch pretty much said the team was working hard but didn't know what was going wrong and it was up to the coaches to solve it. This week the same guy has said that with regards to the attack the penny finally seemed to drop with the team at HT vs Saints. We obviously got our most points in that game so hopefully it's the start of seeing our attack look closer to last years version.

That won't be too hard though really considering there will be no south stand next year so we lose the capacity of one stand.

Hardaker
Handley Watkins Keinhorst Golding
McGuire Lilley
Garbutt Burrow Galloway
JJB Ferres
Sutcliffe

Singleton Mullally Walters Baldwinson/Delaney/Achurch

Alternatively if McGuire is not fit:

Hardaker
Golding Watkins Keinhorst Handley
Sutcliffe Lilley
Galloway Burrow Garbutt
Ferres JJB
Singleton

Walters Mullally Baldwinson Delaney/Achurch.

We got to the 10k mark in season tickets, I think 11k is a fair number especially when we could have the likes of a well supported Leigh or Bradford visit. I dare say Bradford in the Middle 8's would sell more than Wigan in the Super 8's with us having zero chance of reaching the top 4.

Also forgetting the days the games are played on. Super 8's on Friday and Thursday, only takes one of our home games to be on the Thursday night and regardless of whether it's vs Wigan or Saints you can say goodbye to around 3k maybe more with our top 4 hopes slim or gone. Middle 8's are on a Saturday or Sunday afternoon and from past our rare Sunday fixtures do see good attendances.

I didn't aim specifically at you Biff but as you are one of several who are assuming the coach isn't trying to address the obvious player's shortcomings. I take the view that it is inconceivable that the coach cannot identify the player's errors. That is the easy bit. The senior players are experienced and know full well how to defend. Are you suggesting Mac should have dropped Watkins, Hardaker and Ablett for example? And if so exactly who replaces them. For much of the season half his squad have been injured and several of the others have been unable to fully train between matches and he has had to play the walking wounded.

So I say cut the guy some slack.

JC- The simple fact is results & performances aren't anywhere near where they should be so whats the answer ditch multiple players or accept that after 5yrs maybe the Coach has run his course.
The injuries are a factor but not the defining one other Clubs performances show that as for the training ground that doesnt or shouldnt cover 13 weeks into the season they should by now be match fit & have enough grasp of any Coaching structure to be able to perform better imo.
Players are to blame as well i dont dispute that but again quality players dont become bad overnight so maybe its time for fresh voices & ideas.
GH also carrys plenty of blame btw for cheap panic recruitment id also question him who is ultimately to blame for current set up because imo we should have a HC & 2Assts 1 for defence 1 for attack & the Acadamy structure seperate. Jason Davidson is a conditioner not a coach & Kirke should be nowhere near.
Also he has had plenty of credit for the success we have achieved the history books dont lie.
Finally this "having to select the walking wounded" thats complete BS he has plenty of previous of pucking injured players or keeping them on the field too long when others are available & in the case of Delaney then the Coach should havd the nads to not select him.
The time is right for a fresh start across the board imo & i make no apology for thinking that yes i agree its not all his fault absolutely not but the Changes always come at the top in RL when a squad/team dint perform to their potential.

Your analysis and solution is too simplistic for what is a complex problem. In the absence of real facts about the coaching or off field problems the only real facts that we know of are as follows:

1. Three of senior players that for many years were a key part our successful side retired at the end of last season. Two of these were our most respected and influential players and leaders. They were always going to be difficult to replace and so it has proved.

2. We had other players from the first 17 out on long term injury from last season including Ward & JJB

3. Our training ground and facilities were destroyed by the floods

4. Our new hooker was injured in preseason training and out for the first part of the season.

5. Three new forward recruits has to be integrated into a side missing so many senior players and with others down on form it is no surprise that our structures look dodgy.

6. Our new captain and chief replacement play maker McGuire joined the long term injured in our first match

7. We had three other players pick up medium term injuries in our second match (Briscoe, Ablett and Golding)

8. In our third match (WCC) we lost Garbutt to a 4 match suspension

9. Sutcliffe who was to be our replacement for Sinfield, returned from serious long term injury from last year but was unable to find any good form.

10. Any sort of form deserted Hall, Hardaker and Watkins too and when Ablett and Falloon returned they produced a series of errors.

11 The serious injury list has grown to include Ferres, Moon, Cuthbertson, Walters and Hall in addition to Ward with McGuire being injured again shortly after his return. Delaney and Falloon have recurring injuries and others too have been in the sick room.

Now I think you will agree that all these 11 points are facts. Which of them are the fault of the coach?

You discount our injuries as not a defining factor citing that other clubs performances have not been effected by their own injuries. Well I would say that to make that judgement you can only compare like with like. So I ask you which SL clubs have had the same accumulation of negative circumstances?

Since JJB returned we have started to show some improvement in attitude and performance and there are signs that confidence is returning and our attack is much better. So you are saying that just when we might be turning the corner you still want to get a new coach in and your justification for this view is based on other clubs changing coaches in the past when things go wrong.! How many of these had a similar set of negative circumstances to overcome?

Its neither the coach or the players - its both. So far whichever players have been picked have as a unit shown very little ability with the ball (at current rates we're likely to score less than 100 tries for the year for the first time in almost 50 years) and complete lack of intent in defence.

The only question is whether BM can move things in the right direction, or whether he's lost support amongst the squad. If its the former he'll stay and some players may leave, if the latter he'll go. I very much doubt GH hasn't got a strong idea where the problem(s) lie.

Of the 3 Legends 2 clearly played major influencial roles on/off the pitch by the Coaches own admision something you played down as Mc.D's great man management on that score he's been clearly found out something both he & GH are accountable for.
Other clubs is not the only reason i think its time to change its not even the major one but it was brought by you when you said be careful what you wish for it doesnt work yet it clearly does more often than not.
Cas beat us with 10 of their squad unavailable including they're 2 1st choice BR's FB Centre/Captain SO amingst them yet they had a basic gameplan which they executed well.
Again HKR beat us convincingly with half a team Wakey also had plenty of 1st choice players missing.
Ive repeated time & again 5yrs is enough in RL & you also ignore his squad management re-injured players unused subs its poor simple as that & happens too often look at Delaney/Jjb as perfect examples.
Whilst there are other reasons for this years below par performances things the Coach does control are still found wanting imo i.e the defence is still pish we are still conceding the same trys game after game he still uses Watkins as basically a BR , even with us down in players he still has unused subs & even when others were available picked Delaney when injured.
The new era is upon us it was always going to be a big transition & personally id prefer a fresh approach off the pitch as well as on it.
Its not purely just a blame game exercise they're all culpable good bad and indifferent but in Coaching terms time to move in & start afresh.

You could make similar excuses for Wigan. Yet with a worse squad are joint top.

Quite right, although I think they have been more fortunate in key positions.

There is a lack of confidence and neither defensive or attacking structures are working. I would say that the person to address these issues is the coach.

You think on such a superficial level and look for the obvious stuff to defend the coach.

Perhaps you might consider the following:

1. The coaching structure itself - the fact McDermott is in sole charge of every aspect of coaching at the club means options and input from others are very limited and the incentive to recruit talent is not there - Turkeys don't vote for Xmas. His self protection has damaged the quality of coaching throughout the club, his assistant is a failed championship coach who will never be threat to him. Performances on the field should reflect in part the coaching input or what is the point of the coach.

2. Recruitment - the quality of recruitment has been very poor, if you don't think McDermott doesn't have an input into recruitment than I would suggest you are wrong. So part of the weakness of the squad is significantly down to him.

3. Youth development - the inability to produce, develop and integrate young players into the team - especially the forwards is a direct result of the coaching structure and quality. Look at Wigan, they are the only club as big as Leeds that are comparable - they seem capable of producing a stream of young players and a structure that easily includes them. So when you have injures and Wigan's have been as critical as those at Leeds their drop in performance is minimal. Players like Singleton are not progressing - they are making the same mistakes week in week out - when does that not become a coaching issue.

4. Team selection - consistently playing players who are so injured that they cannot perform at any reasonable level is a serious miscalculation on his part. Better to have some youngsters gaining experience and players getting fit - it is not as if we are winning these games anyway.

5. Injuries - all teams have injuries - some more serious than Leeds, how many Rhinos players are out for the season? Its a red herring that has had a greater impact than it should have do to other issues that have been self inflicted by the coach

5. Tactics and substitutions - even you cannot deflect this from McDermott and leaving unused substitutions when you "allegedly" have a group of player on their last legs doesn't make any sense.

6. Training facilities - if you as the leader are constantly bleating about this it is no wonder the players and supporters are seeing this as an easy cop out. This is a professional sport, deal with it don't let it impact performance - Carneige are in the same boat I don't hear them moaning anywhere near as much - perhaps their coach is tad more pragmatic?

Wigan are missing

Tomkins - their star player
Williams - their starting half back
McIlorum - their starting hooker
O'loughlin - their captain/Sinfield

I what way have Wigan been more fortunate than Leeds?

I mean, I'm no Wigan lover, but they've had S Tomkins (all year), Williams (still), McIlorum (out for the season), and SOL out injured throughout the year so far, hardly great in the key positions. The "injury crisis but not in key positions" is much more applicable on Saints this year

Ok, quite happy to accept they've had issues and Saints as well. No need for a dong measurement contest.

It only serves to strengthen the argument that, within reason, injury set backs should be surmountable.

That is what separates the men from the boys how they cope with adversity