I don't think that made any difference. I don't think we were more tired than them by the end. As Juan said it was individual mistakes, unfortunately mostly by our backs, that led to their tries.

I hope Cas fans don't think this is sour grapes, because it really really isn't, they were good for the win regardless, but James Child was utter sh|te yet again. I wouldn't even let him ref his own age group never mind open age.

I am not sure where your viewpoint was Him, but we were definitely tired. More so and what was clear from the Carnegie seats, is mainly that Cuthbertson was the most tired, and Cas were purposely targeting him with the runs. He was struggling like hell, and that was as a result of how many minutes he was forced to endure.

I agree with you on the ref. I don't think he came up with anything particularly controversial, but it was what he let go that was the main issue.

Yet these were not the important factors in the result. Are you suggesting Walters should have replaced Handley? We made far too many fatal errors and had we made fewer we could have won despite an overall poor team performance.

He might well be suggesting, and could well be totally correct, that a fresh Walters all enthusiastic would have put pressure on the kicker for the Handley error, something we struggled to do and gave him all the time in the world to kick.

Cuthbertson may have been, I don't know. But the team didn't look overly tired. But I don't remember them making breaks past Cuthbertson or scoring because of him or any of the forwards really, bar maybe the one in the first half ran over the top of Aiton. But that wasn't because he was tired.

Cas won because of the individual mistakes, unfortunately some from Handley but also from Sutcliffe at full back and Hall. And some of the bizarre Child decisions, the non-obstruction immediately before their drop goal being the most obvious.

In the second half they were clearly running at Cuthbertson who was struggling throughout that second half. It was clear to see from the Carnegie seats, as Cas were aiming that way. He was struggling to get near them, and when he did he was down on the floor then struggling back up. He wasn't the only one tired, but he was the one targeted.

I agree on why we lost the match, but still think without the poor coach in the dugout making these crazy decisions things could have changed in our favour. I agree with you on Child also, that drop goal from the obstruction was a joke, just as the head high on Sutcliffe in the first half stopping a certain try was. Surely that type of tackle is what they have defined as a sin binning in the rule changes.

Cuthbo was blowing. If he was more refreshed would he have knocked on after the re-start to Sinfield's match leveling 2 points? we can hand pick dozens of examples of errors through the course of the game on both sides. But Cas on this occasion found the killer blows.

do tired players make more errors, or less errors, in your opinion ?

I enjoyed Kylie's bone rattler on Milner. Not sure how legal it was though.

Poor though people may think Child was we still won the penalty count 7-3.
Two of his dubious decisions were:
not to penalise Cas when the player kicked the ball forward at a PTB on their line.
Secondly, not to penalise Bailey when he tackled Burrow in the air after he'd kicked the ball on a 5th tackle play.
Both plain to see.
Child wasn't the reason we lost.

Cuthbo blowing was not the reason we lost. Too many players made errors which cost us not only points but possession and field position. This was much more of a factor in the workload of JP and Cuthbo. I do not believe having Yates on the pitch in place of either JP or Cuthbo would have improved our situation.

On a positive note it was a good return for Kylie who we are going to need in the coming weeks. McGuire too had a good game and did not deserve to be on the losing side. We are missing the sort of performances that a fit JJB & Delaney bring to the side and of course Briscoe can not return soon enough.

You could argue those penalties were not policed corrected even though he gave them, as most were for hands in the ruck, yet he never even warned them despite it continually happening.

Two inches lower, it would have been perfect. Just caught him under the chin with the shoulder I thought.

We are talking about how this particular game was lost not generalisations.

Are you saying that the errors in the first 20 minutes that cost us 18 points and a lack of attacking positions were due to fatigue?

Are you saying that Handley's inability to make a try assisting pass (not for the first time) or Watkins making a stupid offload when we had tackles in the bank and in a great field position were down to tiredness because they didn't get the chance of a nice cup of tea on the bench?

And do you believe that the last two Castleford tries were because Handley did not get interchanged rather than due to inexperience/lack of technique of a young player serving his apprenticeship.?

And why can you not seem to accept that perhaps the reason Handley was put in that position for the last try is down to the fatigue of his team mates not doing their job before getting to him?

Would having a fresher Peacock or Cuthbertson on the field in the last ten minutes when the game was on the line have improved Leeds chances of winning it? Of course it would. To say otherwise is absolute nonsense.

With three big fresh forwards on the pitch Cas were eating up the ground every time they took the ball in and much more aggressive in defence. Leeds couldn't match them down the middle because Aiton was off the field and the two players highlighted were running on empty.

McDermott's bizarre use of interchanges handicapped the team in a vital portion of the game, not for the first time. There is never a sole reason for any defeat/poor performance, but playing with one hand tied behind your back certainly doesn't help.

Hard to disagree with that.

Correct, Cuthbo wasn't the reason we lost in isolation. But he contributed an error, like many did.

Cas isolated Sutcliffe and Handley for some special treatment and their kick pressure worked.

But for me, Cas bringing on the refreshed Big 3 with 20 minutes to play, in a close game, was the difference for me.

No aggression, no defence, no size, no communication, no commitment, no organization..

apart from that I thought we were ok

we have a very soft underbelly at the moment, teams don't need to do anything special to beat us

Well, at least Briscoe, Hardaker, Moon, JJB, and Delaney should be well rested.

It's clear to me, that the enthusiasm, and energy that was there at the start of the season isn't there at the moment. Not rotating the front row may well be our down fall this season, I know it's been forced due to injuries at times, but only Ablett has seen his form improve over the last month, the rest of the pack look very fatigued.

We can go on about subsitutions and who should play and who shouldn't etc. but the biggest problem we have ATM is simply 'ball respect' or lack of it in our case.

I said back when we beat Hull early on in the season that the players should watch the poor first half performance twice and not bother looking at the 2nd half impressive performance as they wouldn't learn anything vital from that. Whilst this attacking style is obviously more entertaining to watch, our insistence to try play it for 80 minutes every match is foolish. Constantly playing like we're two scores down with only several minutes left. Likewise with the HKR game at Headingley and also Wakey last week and Castleford last night, how many times do the opposition start sets well placed in our half or near enough?

People talk about fatigue. Is it because of the turnaround? The use of subs? Resting players? Tell you what doesn't help, defending a set of six and then only getting two carries of the ball and losing in your half and having to defend another set with them already in range. For all talk of subsitutions we finished the 1st half stronger and they looked to be struggling to keep up when we stopped giving the ball away and making them travel 80/90m downfield instead of 40/50m.

Whilst it might not be attractive on the eye, the style of play we produced in the CC final against Castleford is one we still need to use at times as it can be effective and be the right one. We don't even have to use it all game, just certain periods. Start off the game solidly, complete sets, make them consistently start in and around their 20m, target guys in the defensive line to tire out and THEN start throwing it about a bit.

Last year we played too conservatively/timid in attack. This year we've flipped 180 and gone to an extreme of reckless attack. If we can find somewhere in the middle of those two we'd be fine.

Those players to come back will definitely make us a sharper outfit.

Delaney was getting back to his best before his latest injury set back. so him back in the side alongside JJB will add that ton of grit that our pack need. Seeing as those are the 'trusted' players who can offer a full stint.

They came on with 20 left but we still were the side on top for the next 10 when Sinfield hit the penalty on 70mins and looked the more likely to win when it went 24-24 (Infact thought we should gone for the try and not the penalty). Then it was Cuthbertson error, DG, short kick off failed, Handley error, game over.

Errors giving good field position again. Cuthbertson dropping in our half. Short kick off, not really an error but gives them the ball near half way. Handley obviously then messes up for the try. Earlier on in the half their first score coming after a Stevie Ward high shot piggy backs them upfield. Their scores in the first half coming because we couldn't complete sets and them starting well placed.

We make teams start set from deep in their own half and avoid silly penalties then we aren't even in a close game last night in the final 20mins.

We've been worked out, that pack is tired and at the end of it's shelf life. Everyone knows how to beat us. If we had the beef to smash up the middle then that's what we would be doing but we don't (hence the overcomplicated handling in the wrong areas of the pitch), and we don't have the capability to pressure teams with defence often enough. Stevie Ward has been stand out with his enthusuaism, workrate and the power of his defence. We need a couple more like him and someone who can run the ball through a brick wall all game.

The coach has demonstrated his faith in our reserve forwards - he has none. That's why they sit on the bench nearly the whole game.

Most tries come from an error somewhere of some description, either a direct defensive one (Handley jumping in on Shenton for Solomona's first, dropping a simple catch for his second) or a handling error/penalty creating the field position in the first instance.

Arguably Leeds only got back into the game before half time as a result of Cas giving away five consecutive penalties, a poor defensive read by the winger for Hall's try and some soft tackling on Cuthbertson under their own posts.