Whilst Leeds clearly haven't done that well in recent years, the idea that somehow we've let any number of potential superstars go is rose-tinted viewing of juniors in the extreme. There isn't a single junior who we've let go in the last decade who has gone on to be world class, very few have become SL stars (I'm being generous here) and of those most have developed much later like Gale. If anything the evidence really says they weren't as good as some thought in the first place. If they were that good I'd fully expect a kid dumped at 19 to be able to kick on without being at Leeds.

In the past I could point to the likes of Derryck Fox, Kevin Ward, Schofield, even Ellery Hanley who could have been signed as juniors and you could genuinely regret we didn't sign them. There isn't a single player in that class that Leeds let go as a junior in SL from the last decade. Like I say, you can give me all the views of how good some kid is at 15 or even 19. The fact that they don't become anything suggests they really just weren't that good.

I agree. Worrying isn't it.

Absolutely this.

George and Tom Burgess?

Completely agree.

Yours,

Vince Fawcett.

Indeed

Regards

Richard Gunn

Agree completely with this, also has the heart the size of a pea (Same as Hardaker) which isn't the kind of player that you want in your team when the going gets tough. When we was in trouble in that 2015 season he was the first to want out and seemed to stop wanting to play half way through the season - Very similar to the Hardaker situation, it was all good when Leeds where up there and he was getting things his own way (In fact id probably argue he was just as good at Leeds as he is now at cas) but was the first one to want out when the going got tough.. and after Leeds threw him lifeline after lifeline as well.

In terms of his time at Cas... Well he looks good playing off a quick play the ball with all the time in the world, comes up with the odd smart play, looks his average self in defence, in all honesty I cant believe he has been picked in that England squad. Lets see how he performs if he gets selected in against the Aussies.

No chance of that imo, Hodgson has the 9 shirt wrapped up. I would also have Clark as his bench rotation if we use one as he is more of an impact player than McShane and more suited to a 15 minute cameo but we will see how Bennett goes.

If Bennett picks on form Roby would be the England hooker

Hodgson is playing really well at the minute for Canberra who are charging late for a play off spot, he is bang in form from what i have seen. I agree on roby mind but he is wrong side of 30 now and bennett hasn't seen him first hand doubtful he figures at all imo but he would be in the squad for me. I think he will take Hodgson, Clark and Houghton which i wouldn't argue with.we don't have an issue at hooker.

I agree with you and suggest that the problem is not so much that we are not developing youngsters well enough at Leeds but perhaps it is because we are not recruiting the right ones.

However as other clubs are also having trouble producing genuine new class players it is more likely that the sport as a whole is not attracting enough of the right youngsters to our game.

For some time now RU offers better coaching set ups for juniors and also better prospects to progress into professional rugby. English RU now has a huge wealth of young talent coming through and therefore we have to take a serious look at our game as it no longer is the better form of rugby in the eyes of both the public and I would say young potential players too.

i don't particularly think we actually have to compete with union too much at junior level, the real problem for me is the amateur/junior side itself. there just seems to be too many clubs with great set ups, their own facilities that for the last 10 years have gone to the dogs. when kids see there older brothers cousins parents playing open age, they want to play RL as well they get dragged along to watch get the buzz and join the juniors,. around Castleford district there were dozens of cubs open age and juniors. there are hardly any anymore. there is only Loch lane in castleford got teams through the age groups and they have been struggling to get a side. theirs fryston ope age and panthers who have lost there open age teams. then there is only fev lions, rockware and thats it. there simply is not enough people playing the game at all age groups in the so called heartland areas. there are loads of football teams now as well, when 20 years ago there was hardly any specially grass roots junior teams. loads of people i know their kids play football not rugby.

The biggest potential step forward here is for clubs to run free to attend coaching seminars for the amateur coaches. In most cases the junior coaches at an amateur club are simply the parents of some of the kids, and whilst they have some knowledge of the game, they have little to no formal education in coaching (which is very different to playing of course).

Personally I would make it mandatory for the clubs in SL to run coaching seminars / clinics, and for them to take a much more active role in the development of coaching (and therefore the juniors) at their local clubs. This is something I have personal experience of at my local club Upton, so I feel well qualified to comment.

Both Wakefield and Leeds run these on a regular-ish basis. I've attended at both clubs and found them great for supplying ideas and a chance to discuss etc.

From my experience, a lot of the coaching at youth level revolves around winning, when it shouldn't, leads to the usual, give It to the big kid, best player/coaches boy at 6 even if the ball never goes any further, over aggressive, couple of player lead defence rather than good technique and decision making. That's not everyone, there are some people doing great work, but to an extent I think coaching age group ruby often attracts the wrong type of people.

On the point of there not being enough clubs it is really strange. At the younger age groups s (up to about 12s) there seems to be loads, almost too many, to the point where a lot of teams have smaller numbers, then for whatever reason there seems to be a lot of drop off. Some teams disappear completely meaning some teams are left with big squads from taking on others in their area.

Whilst I agree it would be ideal to teach kids the skills but do you think you could retain them if they got beat in every game by a team who applied the "give it to the biggest lad" approach?

Ive experienced that quite a bit with the lads I coach (u11s) many games this year I've come away feeling we've played the better game, but lost to a team that plays a style I don't agree with or is heavily realiant on individuals, be that for size speed etc. Now we don't become 'competitive' till next season, and I can see this getting worse.

Now I've lost some players this year, but I'm confident that the players I have got have developed, and importantly the parents I have seem to have bought into it eventually. The key part was communicating that my focus as a coach was and is not on winning, it's on individual and team development.

How long that lasts as boys get a bit older etc I don't know, they are going to care more about winning, hopefully their hard work will develop to tangible success as a byproduct. But personally I wouldn't want to put success before development and I preach that, the same way I preach putting the team before individuals. For me I'd rather keep players who think that same way. Competitiveness is a great trait, but it shouldn't manifest as selfishness if you get me?

I suppose I wish I saw more teams do that, and in a way I think we are going to competitive league structure a year or 2 early.

Maybe I'm a bit of a dreamer.

Keep that ethos, its the one thats most productive when it matters. The last team i coached up to the end of last year started in group 4 (around position 38 out of 40) at u9s and finished the u16s season 4th in the premier. The early days were spent without focusing on win win. The undefeated all conquering u12/13 yorks/national champions ended up falling down the divisions.

Its great that Leeds and Wakefield are doing some of this (Wakefield are the local SL club to Upton and we've not seen them there recently), but my point is all teams should be doing it. The standard of coaching at amateur clubs is usually woeful, mainly around the points you raised, and here is where we need to see improvements. Personally, at the younger end, I think it's all about team ethics, skill education and development, and making it fun, however even at this age the coaching seems to be as you describe with the big kid skittling the little ones and eventually they lose interest. Parents don't help sometimes either, as the kids can hear them from the touchlines, complaining about this kid or that kid "being crap", its so disheartening.

Forgive the pun, but the amateur game needs to professionalize sooner rather than later to keep kids interested and provide them with the skills necessary to develop. The professional game has a responsibility to make sure that the "production line" is in good health.

Couldn't agree more. It's about getting the right people involved at club level, and then them not being willing to just stand still.

Coaches have to learn as much as players to stay ahead of the game. Parents with all due respect need to buy in and to a certain extent get out of the way, but as a coach control what you can control, yourself and your players.

Cheers Seth. It's nice to find like minded people. Hard work and long term goals.

if it's a help football is exactly the same. parents running teams, only in it to cover themselves with glory. non existent coaching as the dad's play to win.
some parents are great but most aren't.
and football has spent millions on grass roots coaching

I think it's a sporting problem in general. Unfortunately while the top level is ticking over nicely often the people higher up he could have an impact probably won't.

It is. I coach Union and have done for nearly 10 years now (started when my son did at U6). Same story, everyone seems to have their own agenda - I guess including me, I just hope mine is a little more productive and less ed on my own child.
Swimming however is on another level. I can only assume we produce champion swimmers by accident (and the medal numbers probably back that up). Parents are a nightmare in swimming, usually because top clubs employ a coach and are run by parents. I have seen and heard of clubs literally torn apart by groups of parents pushing their own agenda or just wanting to f*** things up for everyone else out of jealousy or ignorance of how to actually train a swimmer. They all become experts and all think they know what their child should be doing - and very rarely does it match what a professional coach thinks. We had three years of it at the top level with my son, from 10 to 13 and I never want to have anything to do with it again and I certainly have no contact with any of the other parents I got to know in that time. I don't know one club that hasn't had parents try to bring it to it's knees, sack coaches etc. and some of the vendettas between clubs are hilarious, or they would be if they weren't so vindictive. In rugby you have a shouting match and maybe a bit of agro, in swimming it's done through solicitors (I've seen numerous court cases) and committee meetings and knives in the back. My son has been targeted because we dared to move club, his old club found a technicality in the county rules and had him banned from competing that year- to "protect him from exploitation as a swimmer" was the official explanation. The truth was his old coach was a total b**ch who should never have been allowed near children. Rugby is so much simpler, trust me.

Ouch. Sounds terrible that DHM. My experience of swimming back in the 80s was that you had to be extremely good indeed to get offered any coaching whatsoever but that seems better than the current nightmare.

I thought it was great to begin with, I knew nothing about it and had no parents giving me stick like I did at rugby. My lad was late into it, he didn't join a club till just before his 10th birthday and he was totally unknown (you can see all kids times on the ASA rankings and everybody knows who they have to beat - it's a bit scary). Oh how that changed when the boy started winning and beating kids who had been at the club since they were 6.
In fairness Ben was very good, he's a natural (his highest ranking was 6th in the UK for his 1500 free ), he was at the serious end, but at 11 you shouldn't have to deal with parents trying to psych you out before a race. Nothing is that serious.
He got sick when going through puberty and after 6 months of battling gave up. He didn't swim for a year but now joined our local club, which is small and friendly and he does 2 hours a week to keep his stroke and for fun and fitness. He hadn't raced for over a year and did a development gala a couple of months ago, just 50's. He went pretty quick on the fly and free and within a day we had messages from people we hadn't spoken to in 12 months who had seen he was back swimming again trying to find out what he was doing.