He won't sack McD and McD is too stubborn to fall on his own sword.

Perhaps but not all the blame. Most of his critics on here have been wanting him out for years and when things go wrong out comes the same old solution 'sack the coach'. Don't let the extenuating circumstances get in the way of the agenda. If the club were to sack him now who are you proposing as a replacement? and do you think that a new coach will would have prevented the errors from Handley and Hardaker or allowed any of the missing nine 1st teamers to have played.

Perhaps in a different culture those players don't make those errors. In a different culture their confidence is higher as is their belief. Guarantee you something no way that team would have conceded nearly 100 points in the last two games if Murray was coach.

I am not suggesting they sack the coach now - I do think he has run his course and its time for a cultural change. If you want a tangible example look what has happened at Wakefield.

The current culture/structures have reach their level of incompetence and it its time for an overhaul.

Which 9 players that played on Saturday are going to drop out to accommodate the injured players?

improvement from where we are is easy, improvement to where we want to be is very difficult.

We could go out and sign some players, get a new coach, and maybe win a few towards the end of the year. But then what do we do next year? We have spent money on players to get us to mediocrity where do we find the money to get us to winning?

Wakefield are an average team playing well, this will likely be their pinnacle. This should be our nadir.

We clearly have a team struggling mentally, but i dont think we have a squad which is miles away quality wise. We dont need 4 or 5 additions, we need one or two of the right additions, and if we do decide that McDermott doesnt have the answer, we dont need a change of coach, we need a change to the right coach.

A few on here need to be careful what they wish for because knee-jerk and poorly thought out changes will see this wasted year become 4 or 5 wasted years.

When does it stop being "knee jerk" to want changes? The right changes yes. We have not seen any discernible improvement on defence all season and indeed post GH's plea to be patient we have had two of the heaviest defeats to date; the latter against a team that has struggled to score tries all season.

When are we expected to wait until exactly? Until the start of the Middle 8's? The middle of the middle 8's, with continiued promises that when the all important 9 missing all return to fitness things will be different; until after the million pound game? When?

it is always knee jerk to want changes. Change itself is of no use and can be counter productive.

We could go out and get some players but those players need to be better than our players can become. The players we sign for next year limit the players we can sign for the year after. We dont need to make changes, we need to make the right ones.

.....so some changes do need to be made then, we just need to add in the word ''right ones'' for you to agree.

there is a big difference between 'changes' being the solution and solving our problem with the changes we make.

We need to do the right thing and that may not be changes, certainly in some instances it wont.

McDermott is the perfect example, if we decide that he isnt the answer and make a change, that change may end up with a coach who takes us down a different but wrong path and in three years time we figure out we are even further away from success than we are right now.

A different/wrong path to what? Where are we going now do you think?

Well, yes. There needs to be a root and branch review of recruitment and coaching structures in order to set out a plan for the next five to ten years.

You would have hoped, the end of the 2015 season representing something of a watershed in the evolution of the side, that would have been the perfect time to do it. Seems that the club took an "it'll be right" approach instead, and for a variety of reasons it's turned out not to be.

Carrying on as things are regardless until the end of the season isn't the answer to anything though. There needs to be accountability, and at the moment there doesn't appear to be any at any level of the club. Just people on the inside looking for excuses on the outside.

One thing is certain - standing still will lead to one thing, regression, as we have seen this season. The club thought it would be OK to maintain the status quo - that looks like a mistake.

I am suggesting evolution not revolution, part of which is a review/overhaul of the coaching structure. Getting the right coach is a job for the CEO - the fear of not getting it right shouldn't be a reason for making a change if the review suggests that is the best course of action.

If any club has the finances to get the right players in its Leeds. The right players don't have to cost anymore than the wrong players the skill is identifying the former - I bet Falloon is no cheaper than Aiton would have been.

Any root and branch review of recruitment and coaching structures also needs to account for the fact that the coaching and recruitment structures we have, have brought us a decade plus of incredible success.

i dont think the club took an 'itll be right' approach. In fact id argue a whole lot of what has caused such a struggle at leeds were pretty unforseeable. Yes there was likely to be a drop off to losing Sinfield and Peacock but it shouldnt have been this large, who would have forseen the drop off from Hardaker and Watkins? the long term loses of Hall and Briscoe, the massive step back taken by Sutcliffe?

But we can't have Falloon and Aiton. That is the point. We may have been able to get some decent players last off-season. But we can't get decent players last off-season and good ones next.

As i have said above, i think the club accepted there would be a step back, but not to the scale we have seen (or close) and a lot of what has gone wrong has been unforseeable.

Lets say things hadnt gone quite as bad as they have and we had maybe 6 more points, do we see that as an expect drop off in the cycle of success? or are we still needing huge changes?

The question shouldnt be McDermott out or not, it should be who comes in? If there is 'huge changes' to be made then thats an awful lot of trust to put in someone not at the club, someone replacing a multiple trophy winner coming off a treble winning season.

If there is someone out there that we are confident will execute the next 5 year plan and rebuild us to success then pull the trigger. If we are just trying something different then we are flipping a coin

Smokey - I agree with your logic, but at the same time we are quite likely staring down the barrel of SL survival with a team that is utterly dreadful and unable to complete the most basic tasks. Hoping that injured players return and then help turn things around in a major way is a massive risk to take IMO.

If you take a look at the teams we've put out most weeks they compare favourably on paper to most of our opponents. However, on the field they look really really bad - as bad as any Leeds team I've seen going back to 1981, and not just bad for a couple of weeks but for an entire half season.

My view is that GH should be tapping someone like Brian Smith on the shoulder with a view to him coming in as a short-term fix if we keep playing so badly into the start of the Middle 8s. However, it should be made clear that he would only be coach to the end of the season, but would then be involved in all the reviews and coach selection process. Because you are right that if we get a new coach now, the danger is that we end up with a lemon down the track. I just think the risk of continuing to plod along with the same approach is getting too high.

I think this is a great point, and the biggest pointer to a need for change. I have no doubt we would be playing a bit better and a bit further up the league with all our squad fit, that stands to reason. But i really don't think it would be business as usual as some, including GH it seems, think it would be.

I wasn't suggesting we could have Falloon and Aiton, just we could have retained Aiton for the same cost.

We lost two of the biggest earning players in the squad and probably in the league last season that should have freed up some cash towards squad strengthening.

If the club accepted regression that is a very dangerous game. How do you arrest the slide? There should never have been an acceptance of performance dip - if that doesn't lead to trophies so be it. Do you really think world class teams accept going backwards? No they are striving to move forwards in different ways.

The question should be where do we want to be 5 years time and what milestones need to be achieved to deliver that vision and what are the timing of those milestones. I would suggest improved youth development, recruitment and on the field performance are vital in that vision. If that requires structural changes including a new head coach so be it - if it doesn't OK. One thing is certain the current situation isn't delivering on any of those fronts.

Leeds form is dire, Brian's firing's justified

na na na na nanah nah

I think Peter Smith in the YEP is starting to see the problem the same way as many fans:

"Clearly something has to change, because carrying on regardless and simply expecting things to improve will not work. There is no indication anyone at the club knows what is going wrong or how to fix it."

If Peter Smith of the YEP ain't careful, GH will sack him.

Time for GH to check out Southstander. Plenty of answers here.

BMD needs his lucky rubber glove back.

The thing is that his press conferences instill no confidence and provide no answers. The Wigan game here - www.therhinos.co.uk/tv/brian-mcd ... K6xvkrK70- seems to say that the players are all knackered due to playing and 'tough' calls. Tough tough tough. Why do we refuse (Lunt aside) to go out and get a loan player or big signing mid-season? Is it an arrogance thing that we don't? Again, players don't turn garbage overnight.

The thing is that his press conferences instill no confidence and provide no answers. The Wigan game here - www.therhinos.co.uk/tv/brian-mcd ... K6xvkrK70- seems to say that the players are all knackered due to playing and 'tough' calls. Tough tough tough. Why do we refuse (Lunt aside) to go out and get a loan player or big signing mid-season? Is it an arrogance thing that we don't? Again, players don't turn garbage overnight.

i dont think Falloon is on that high a wage, but there is almost certainly a reason why he is only on a 1 year deal. Perhaps are real target wasnt available this season but is next?

I think the idea that not only could we replace Peacock and Sinfield is a tough ask, to do it immediately is even tougher. We cant go out and get the first available player and try and replace them. We will be constantly chasing our tail. We may need to wait a year for the right player to become available.

I dont think its co-incidence that we have a couple of players on only 1 year deals.

Have they, or has that period of incredible success been achieved off the back primarily of a core of high class young men who came to the club in the early 2000s? The quality of recruitment to supplement that core has tailed off spectacularly during that golden decade. Leeds have gone from signing players such as Ellis, Webb, Lauitiiti and Senior to the likes of Achurch, Falloon and Mullally.

Changes to the exchange rate and salary cap have meant that top quality antipodeans are no longer available, granted. However Leeds' recruitment - both in terms of players going straight into the first team and juniors coming through the system - has gone from Waitrose to Lidl in short order. Leeds have two players in the England Academy squad to play France. There are three other lads in that squad from community clubs in the Leeds area (one from Stanningley and two from Oulton) who have signed elsewhere (one at Bradford, two at Wakefield). How does that happen, that the biggest club in the area misses out on some of its top juniors?

Without his generals to lead in the heat of battle and play what's in front of them, McDermott's coaching has been shown up to be well below the required standards. There are coaches running around in the community game who can at least get a team to play to a shape and structure both with and without the ball. That appears to be entirely beyond Leeds at the moment. The contrast in performances between say Leeds and Wakefield at the Magic Weekend sums up the current malaise. It's apparent how much of Leeds' attacking potency in previous years has been reliant on an individual producing a moment of class. With those individuals sidelined, the simple basics of being able to complete a set or move a defence to where you want it to be have gone missing.

For a number of reasons - some out of their control but most not - Leeds are regressing at a spectacular rate to the point where you genuinely fear for their chances in the middle 8s. Something needs to be done with a degree of urgency, which will galvanise the club in the manner that Brian Smith's arrival did at Wakefield last year.

From 4 weeks back I always was of a mind that you would finish bottom 4, but of course have no concerns whatsoever of comfortably negotiating that hurdle and resuming your place in Super League for 2017. So part one of your transition period sorted.

However, having seen the levels of performance since then I'm having a shift of thinking.

It appears the issues are not only on the playing field, they are also running through the very fabric of the organisation.

I'm sure its not terminal, but it does appear that the battles ahead to retain your Super League status against Championship clubs will see them looking at the fixture against Leeds as one that is perfectly winnable. Something no one ever dreamt would be possible to say. How the mighty have fallen.

The Grand Finale to your season may yet be a far bigger hurdle than last years Grand Final.
For sure the Rugby League world will be watching with interest, perhaps amazement ??

We wait and see.

If we start behaving like Wakefield and making decisions like Wakefield, pretty soon we will be a club like Wakefield.