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| He's going to pick Zak at centre. If Tomkins was an option for the halves he wouldn't have picked 4 options there.
At the moment Tomkins really shouldn't be in.
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| He's bottled it.
He doesn't have the bottle to leave one of them out.
If you aren't going to play Hardaker at fullback don't play him. But he's going to shoehorn him into the team probably at centre because he can't leave the MoS out, and obviously you can't leave tomkins out (he's an automatic selection, no matter what his form is like), or play him anywhere but fullback because that's how we've been building the last couple of years.
If he's going to pick Tomkins at fullback, he should leave hardaker out and not select him. (talking likely starting 13 here)
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| Quote ="loiner81"I think ToffeeLady's got a crush on Sam.'"
Right yes, because I'm a girl my opinion on a player can't possibly be to do with anything other than how attractive they are. Idiot.
I take people's point about his 2015 compared to Hardaker's my point is that the rest of his side weren't too great either, and he's been injured. Both have contributed to his form. Hardaker on the other hand has been fit and played in the top side in SL. His 2014 form was good. He has earned the right in the past to be a core player int he England side.
I don't know why people are getting annoyed tbh, I've said they should both be in the side, the aussies don't having this whinging over Slater and Inglis.
The fact some of you are still calling him 'ratboy' is telling. I personally really dislike Hardaker but I'm not blinkered enough to suggest that he shouldn't be in the england side.
Hardaker should play fullback because he's not really effective elsewhere, Tomkins would be very effective at 6 imo.
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| Quote ="ToffeeLady"Right yes, because I'm a girl my opinion on a player can't possibly be to do with anything other than how attractive they are. Idiot. '"
Sorry I take it back, it's not like you were going completely over the top in your praise of him was it, making multiple posts and getting to the point where you were almost drooling down the internet.
To be fair though i'd have said the same if you'd have been a bloke as the men of Wigan seem to have the same problem when it comes to Sam Tomkins.
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| Quote ="loiner81"Sorry I take it back, it's not like you were going completely over the top in your praise of him was it, making multiple posts and getting to the point where you were almost drooling down the internet.
To be fair though i'd have said the same if you'd have been a bloke as the men of Wigan seem to have the same problem when it comes to Sam Tomkins.'"
I made multiple posts as it was part of a conversation. I wasn't going completely over the top in my praise of him at all, I'm not really sure how you've gathered that other than perhaps expecting me to say 'He's awful, never been a good player, never will be and Hardaker is literally the best fullback in the history of the game'. There's plenty I could have said to heap praise on him but I haven't.
I was making a point about him not being as bad in NRL as others have suggested and saying he, alongside Hardaker, should still be in the England side. Excuse me for thinking people could have an even handed conversation about two good English players and excuse Wigan fans for admiring one of their great players.
Incidentally if all I am good for is assessing the attractiveness of a player then Hardaker does come in above Tomkins based on this seasons beard form.
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| Anyone who thinks Tomkins right now is a better full back than Hardaker hasn't watched him play this year. He really, desperately needs to be moved into the halfs where his undoubted strengths can be best used.
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| The points I made earlier still stand tho.
Hardaker has earned the FB spot. If ST gets put at 6 (which I think we should with widdop at 7 ) it's more an acknowledgement of what he has done in the past and what we hope he can recreate in the future.
Putting ST at FB would and squeezing Zak at centre would be idiotic . He's won multiple trophies and accolades at FB and has good form .
That said Mcbanana has selected a very unbalanced team. The loss of G Burgess, S Ward and Reed to injury is very unfortunate but we now have a squad with too many backrowers and half backs but not enough props or centres.
Cuthbertson and Shenton are unlucky not to get a call up at all,even for the squad.
It's a shame NZ have so many missing as I'd of liked for us to start building and planning for the next world cup/ ashes etc now .
The younger players like Zak, Watkins,Williams ,Ward, etc etc are the ones who we should be getting as much international experience as possible now and having a long term plan for 1/6/7/9/13 should start now
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| Quote ="BrisbaneRhino"Anyone who thinks Tomkins right now is a better full back than Hardaker hasn't watched him play this year. He really, desperately needs to be moved into the halfs where his undoubted strengths can be best used.'"
Unfortunately the only way i feel we will see Tomkins in the halves for England is if Wigan decide to use him there which is highly unlikely anytime soon.
As Flexwheeler says, McNamara hasn't got the bottle to make the big decision here and will play Hardaker out of position at centre where he isn't even half as effective.
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| we can't always be planning for the future. We don't play enough internationals to do that. The aim should be firstly to win this series, with any experience gained by younger players a bonus. This series needs to be promoted and enjoyed in its own right.
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| Hardaker is a better FB than Ratboy.
Widdop is a better 6 than Ratboy.
However, this doesn't matter when you have a clueless, bottleless coach
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| Quote ="Stevosfalseteeth"Hardaker is a better FB than Ratboy.
Widdop is a better 6 than Ratboy.
However, this doesn't matter when you have a clueless, bottleless coach'"
Or an internet forum poster so heavily biased against one of the three players mentioned that he can't even bring himself to type his name.
No offence, but I'll take McNamara's opinion over yours.
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| One or the other has to play full back. Personally, I'd not consider playing either in another position. If MacNamara chooses Tomkins, then so be it. No lack of bottle on his part should that be his decision. But I do hope he's got the bottle to drop him if fears about missed tackles and dropped balls are realised.
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| It's clear that we will be weaker as a team of 17 men if Tomkins plays FB. He can't catch a cold and can't stop a pig in a passage. Like has been said, if a series defeat to a depleted NZ Side means an End to McBanana as England Coach, then I would take that. Leaving out the likes of Cuthbertson and McGuire is crazy and gets a vote of No Confidence from me.
With the current selected squad I would go with:
1. Hardaker
2. J. Burgess
3. Watkins
4. Cudjoe
5. Hall
6. Widdop
7. Tomkins
8. Graham
9. Roby
10. Hill
11. Bateman
12. Farrell
13. O'Loughlin
14. Hodgson
15. Whitehead
16. T. Burgess
17. Cooper
Writing this makes me feel it's the weakest British International Side we've seen in some time.
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| Looking at that side and considering who the coach is we'll be lucky to get across the line vs NZ. If they'd have had Johnson and Foran (and JWH, Mannering, Taumalolo) we'd have had no chance, but their halves are nobodies so we still have a chance.
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| Quote ="Middleton_Loiner"It's clear that we will be weaker as a team of 17 men if Tomkins plays FB. He can't catch a cold and can't stop a pig in a passage.'"
Try actually watching Sam next time he plays instead of relying on the old prejudices. That's if you are capable.
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| From a purely selfish club point of view I'd hoped Tomkins would have pulled out of the squad, he's had two serious injuries this year and I doubt he's had a proper off season since he first broke into the Wigan first team.
Got to say though I'd prefer Hardaker at fullback anyway, I'm old school and think being a top defender should be no.1 priority in that position.
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| Quote ="apollosghost"From a purely selfish club point of view I'd hoped Tomkins would have pulled out of the squad, he's had two serious injuries this year and I doubt he's had a proper off season since he first broke into the Wigan first team.
Got to say though I'd prefer Hardaker at fullback anyway, I'm old school and think being a top defender should be no.1 priority in that position.'"
You are Eddie "Paul Wellens is the worlds best full back" Hemmings in disguise. I claim my £5.
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| Hardaker is better at defending the line, at defending breaks one-on-one, at catching the high ball, and is infinitely better at returning kicks. Tomkins has a better creative and handling game, and certainly used to have a better broken-field running game but I don't know how much pace he's lost with his latest injuries. Hardaker is also on form. It's a no-brainer that Hardaker should be full-back, but you'd want both of them in your team.
So the other thing to consider is that though Tomkins hasn't played half and Hardaker hasn't played centre for years, Tomkins used to be a better half than Hardaker was a centre. Tell Sam that and it might massage his ego enough for him to accept the position.
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| Quote ="Aboveusonlypie"You are Eddie "Paul Wellens is the worlds best full back" Hemmings in disguise. I claim my £5.'"
Nope, not even close, and Hardaker is blessed with the one thing Wellens never had, pace.
If he was 100% fit I'd have Tomkins at 6 but he isn't so I'd rather he wasn't playing at all.
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| I think next autumn it'll be a totally different story. Ratboy will have had a season playing behind one of the best packs in a team that will dominate defences and strangle attacks with great enthusiasm but those defending him must be remembering his Wigan performances instead of the dross he's served up for the last 2 years. He has been truly awful and out of his depth entirely. That considered he's been playing outside the current golden boot winner and a pack containing Mannering, Hoffman and Matulino.
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| Personally, I think both are exciting and top quality players. Its not wrong to try to shoehorn them both into the 13. We don't have that much quality that we can not pick players of their quality. One will have to be out of position. Question is which will have least impact?
I'm not sure I know the answer. I think a lot of the stuff that Tomkins does brilliantly could be produced at halfback, but we may lose the structure or creativity that one of the others brings. If you move Hardaker to centre you still get the benefit of his good defense, but you miss his ability under the high ball. If both make the 13 then I will be comfortable. If one misses out, I think its a mistake
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| Hardaker at FB for me, with Widdop and Gale in the halves. Pick people in their positions or not at all.
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| I don't think McNamarra can put anything but the most basic structure into England. He does not have the time or the capability. I would have my best guys on the field, starting with Hardaker at FB. Then have Tomkins in the halves and let KOL and Widdop organise the forwards. Precedent for this is the previous selection of "wild card" Rangi Chase.
You have Roby as well running the dummy half. I'd also be a bit radical and have a half back on the bench (just not Smith).
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| Quote ="Dan_74_Rhino"Hardaker at FB for me, with Widdop and Gale in the halves. Pick people in their positions or not at all.'"
That makes no sense.
The Australian team that won the World Cup at Old Trafford when they hammered the New Zealanders contained no less than 4 full backs - Slater, Boyd, Hayne and Inglis.
You pick your best players then find a way to accomodate them all. The idea that Gale has more to offer than Tomkins is, frankly, ridiculous.
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| And then you end up in David Waite territory with a team full of loose forwards but no ball player.
You have to find a balance to the side. You wouldn't pick Hardaker at 1, Tomkins at 6 and Rangi Chase at 7 for example, because that leaves you without an organiser or a kicking game
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