What does this have to do with the question in the original post precious?

Calm reasoned sanity in a world of polarisation

And IMO spot on. I would add that the fact the TS hasn't so far replicated the trophy success with the Wire, highlights the fact that success comes from the combined efforts of Coach the Players in the squad and the back room staff.

I have consistently said the back end of the season after the split will determine where Leeds finish - Printer has chastised me plenty over this attitude. I have repeated that on this thread. It is likely that Leeds will finish top 4 but not the definite that you and some on here are suggesting. Who would have thought at this time last season that Leeds would finish 6th. The back end of this season will be much tougher than facing the likes of London and Bradford

I will take your charity bet what value do you want to risk?

But the first 23 rounds have a pretty big influence too, it's not like the points get reset for Super 8's and we're already 7 points clear of Uber coach Tony Smith's Warrington.
So, yes, i'll gladly take your bet. It is for charity after all.

Not sure on the amount. £50? More, less?

Nothing but somebody asked a different question which I answered. You didn't answer any question, you just stomped your feet like a 5 year old screaming "Tony is the best, stop picking on him!"

I've said before, did Smith make those players winners or did they make him a winner.

Never had GF success before one another. The likes of Sinfield, McGuire and Burrow achieved it after him with different people. Smith hasn't achieved GF after those guys with different people.

Right man at a VERY right time. For as enjoyable as the 2004 season was, just look at the lineups and results and performances of the likes of Bradford, Wigan and Saints. They'd dropped off from the a few years previously. Bradford only slightly but weren't as strong as previous years. Wigan beginning the slide that would see them fighting relegation soon and Saints had their poorest SL campaign. As soon as Saints got ther act together they overtook Leeds. How would Leeds have coped if that same team and coach had been coming through in 2000/2001???

Well you keep changing the goalposts. Before the season started you couldn't see anyway Leeds could be top 4 and one of those who thought we'd struggle to keep top 8. Then matches against other top teams would be our downfall but we've picked up plenty from our rivals and for so long you've been waiting to judge Leeds' season on how the Magic weekend game goes.....as Leeds have played better you've stretched it to the final 7 games.

I "chastised" you because you do things like rush to come on here at halftime when we're playing HKR saying "looks like Leeds haven't bothered turning up" and generally kick them at every oppotunity and panic the season will unravel after 3 disappointing games......yet try so hard to defend Wire and Wigam saying that there's still plenty of time left and we should be patience and see how they possibly come good.

If Smith had little to do with it, what was the difference between the Rhinos in 2003 under Powell and 2004? The improvement cannot be simply attributable to the players being a year older, they fell woefully short against Bradford in the play offs. In truth, to answer the original post, that and the testimony of the players themselves, (see various interviews with McGuire, Sinfield et al), is the only real evidence you can go on.

As for Smith at Warrington, )although that was not really part of the original discussion), again you can only look at the improvement made from the time he joined. The playing roster changed admittedly but that club were rank underachievers and, whilst they may have not reached the pinnacle under him, they have been consistently pretty damn close. In fact, had we not beaten them in 2011, by a single point I might add, they would in all likelihood have been successful in the final.

Both Smith and McDermott are top coaches and it is impossible to say one "without doubt" one is better than the other as they coached at Leeds in different circumstances and will have had different challenges with injuries, form.and the ages of players. What is overlooked is that during Smith's time at Leeds when the culture was changed, with the addition of a much improved mental toughness, he had the help of his assistant coach by the name of Brian McDermott (who also assisted Smith in turning Huddersfield around)

What is also clear is that those posters in the 'Smith is best' corner are in the main some of the biggest critics of McDermott who have had to eat their words on several occassions and whose opinions should therefore be taken with a pinch of salt.

I prefer to get behind our current coach and players against all -comers.

And you were doing so well up to then.

It is perfectly possible to analyse the relative merits and abilities of both coaches without it being taken as a vote of no confidence in the other. IMO Smith changed the culture at Leeds from 2003 and was helped by having good players to call on and a distance from that playing group that Powell didn't have as a former team-mate.

McDermott has carried that work on, but it's impossible to regard some of his team selection and in-game use of substitutes for example as anything other than bizarre.

The logical extension of your last sentence is that McDermott is a better coach than Wayne Bennett. I don't think anyone would argue that to be true, no matter how much they like him.

It wasn't overlooked at all. In fact, many on here attributed the majority of Leeds' success during Smith's tenure almost entirely to BM, coincidentally, some of those same people are now some of his biggest critics.

My Central point was that we have been blessed with some very good coaches, arguing about who is or was the best is very subjective and seems to me, futile.

I couldn't agree more.
However, subjectivity & futile argument (discussion/debate), call it what you will, is the lifeblood of this forum.

True and I wasn't meaning to denigrate anyone when I said it was futile. I enjoy a pointless argument as much as anyone else.

No you don't

This seems to come up every year and turns into a petty slanging match with 2 sets of stubborn opposition not willing to give any credit to the opposing argument.

Both will go down as Leeds coaching legends. I'd argue that Mac's job has been harder, having to manage more of a transition and with more competitive teams. The counter argument for that is that the core of team is so well established his input isn't as critical. Smith will always be remembered as the man who got us over the line for that first Grand Final. Had Joe Vagana not sat on Senior's leg in 2005 I expect Smith's resume would be even better.

Let's just enjoy the fact that our last 4 coaches have been very good in their own way and that we haven't had to suffer the poor results and awful seasons that Wigan, Bradford, Hull, Warrington or to a lesser extent Saints have had to in the last decade.

Well thank you.




I thought you said I was doing so well?

Of course. We all have opinions. But it had been stated that Smith "was without doubt" the best coach which IMO cannot be proven for the reasons I gave .



We are not privy to the exact circumstances of his selections and use of subs, therefore we are not so well qualified to make critical judgement on a proven Champions coach either.



My last sentence said "I prefer to get behind our current coach and players against all -comers" This means I get behind our current coach in the same way as I got behind Smith in his time at Headingley as they both had earned some respect and loyalty. It does not mean I am saying either coach is better than the other - it simply means I support my team against all-comers including any 5th column snipers.

Ok £50 it is - win win for me best case Leeds make the play offs worst case Leeds foundation get the brass.

Well I didn't spot any reference in this thread to BM being given any credit for assisting Smith to transform Leeds.



Success is down primarily to the players but is rarely achieved without a good coach and backroom staff. Coaches sometimes get too much credit for success but more often get too much blame for a failure to achieve success so when teams fall short it is primarily down to the players IMO.

Things evolve they are not cast in stone my views change as thing develop. How can you possibly hold the same view at the start of the season as you do half way through. I thought Saints had the best squad on paper but injuries to key players has impacted them in a way that could not be predicted. Even you were not predicting Leeds to finish 6th at this point last season and go out first round of the play offs.

On the Hull KR game at half time Leeds had conceded 4 trys and made numerous unforced errors. How would you describe the first half last week?

I am saying we should be patient with all sides the season is barely at the half way stage. Wigan are only 4 points behind Leeds not out of sight.

The crunch for Leeds will come after the split when this ageing side is playing the best sides week in week out.

I paid for a full half hour argument. And any way that wasn't an argument it was just contradiction.

Isn't a contradiction a good way to start an argument

No it isn't, Argument is an intellectual process ... contradiction is just the automatic gainsaying of anything the other person says

I see.

So you don't want the discussion to go away from the original question by the first poster.

However, you're happy for the discussion to move in a different direction if it is in response to a question.

Do you have these rules written down anywhere or are they just in your head?

I was posting opinions about Tony Smith's abilities and merits as a coach. You're the one acting like a child. I'm not the first poster to label such accusations at you. By all means reply if you wish but I have no further desire to engage with you. I'll discuss any topics, whether they are strictly related to a thread or drift slightly, at my discretion, within the rules of the forum, with the grown ups, which doesn't include your good self. Welcome to the ignore function.

Sometimes I think we have forgotten just how hard it is to win a title. Our last three coaches have all done it multiple times so it looks like its easy.

Its also strange that all did arguably best with someone elses side. Smith took virtually Powells squad to the title in 04, Mclennan took Smiths squad to the title in 2008, and McDermott took Mclennans squad to the title in 2011.

McDermott is 5 years in now. So he has been here a bit longer than Smith, and two titles and a challenge cup puts him slightly ahead of Smith at Leeds. But its hard to argue Smith hasn't done well at Wire.

My personal opinion is that if McDermott gets Leeds over the line again he has put a real big marker down, not just because it will be his 3rd title, but because he will have won it with what it undoubtedly 'his' team, a squad he built, and Smith, as good a job as he has done at wire, has had plenty of time to do that and so far not got them there.