The quicker we look to putting International RL at the forefront of our sport rather than two domestic competitions the better chance of progression in terms of keeping high class players and interest in our sport

Do you think losing the Challenge Cup would cause anyone to give a s**t about international RL? I'm not convinced. The top RU clubs manage 3 competitions. It doesn't stop them pulling in 70k+ per home international 5-6 times a year, and it won't stop them shifting a million or so World Cup tickets. They are able to do this because the clubs recognize that the international game is where the money is. RL clubs won't recognize this, because it isn't true in RL.

There is only one country in this hemisphere that is able to compete reasonably consistently at something approaching Test level. It's very hard to build a thriving international scene out of that.

Without slamming the past the Challenge Cup is almost becoming a burden. When two classic teams can't sell out Wembley it does say a lot.

Let's be honest here, where does RU largely make its money? Internationals

Now yes the new European tournament has arrived and is spangly and new but that takes interest away from the domestic leagues which aren't cracking flags.

Sam Burgess hasn't gone to Union to win the Premiership, nor the European cup. He's simply gone to try and win that World Cup in a year's time

I disagree I like Burgess has gone to challenge himself - like Hayne in the NRL. Having heard him speak I don't think the WC is his priority. He wanted to return to England and this gave him the best opportunity to do that.

I honestly believe when Union came knocking the prospect of representing his country on home soil in sold out stadiums was the first thing that was sold to him

Yes but that happens regardless of the world cup and he was playing in front of as many big crowds in Sydney as he would be for England the average RU club crowd isn't massive Bath's capacity is only 12k. Last season he played in 9 games where the crowd > 20k and 4 games where the crowd was > 40k he will not get anything like those crowds in the premiership.

I believe he wants to prove something to himself - his goal will be the international set up but I don't think that is his primary motivation. I can't see him ever going back to Australia.

I think you missed my point a bit here. There is truth in all those statements (well, hard to know about the last one, you'd have to ask Sam Burgess - off camera...). RU does make its money in internationals. RL does not. And it doesn't fail to make money in internationals because of the Challenge Cup. It fails to make money in internationals because the international scene is not competitive enough. The only teams that we can get excited about beating are on the other side of the world. There are only really 2 teams who can win a WC, with one (England) who you could say were an outside bet to pull off an upset. That has been true for a long time. Getting rid of the Challenge Cup would not fix those problems.

I think Sam Burgess is a pretty honest bloke, and I also think he recognises the size of the challenge he's just set himself. His talk at the moment is of trying to pin down a spot in Bath's team, before he starts thinking about England. That is not going to be easy at all.

I don't think he'll feature in the next World Cup. If he applies himself (as I'm sure he will) he could play a big part in the next one.

Indeed.

Not quite sure how scrapping the Challenge Cup and having three or four games of England v France or Wales that turn into blowouts is going to bolster the international RL scene.

Some excellent work going on at the moment - albeit on a very small scale - in getting international RL played between new countries where the sport is looking to grow from the grass roots up. That's the way forward in creating a vibrant international scene, but it's going to take time and patience.

Two things RL fans aren't exactly known for having.

Spot on.

I don't see how scrapping the Challenge Cup and getting rid of RL's biggest annual day would benefit RL. It also wouldn't help making RL even more one dimensional with only 1 chance for silverware. Would Cas have had such a good season without the carrot of the Challenge Cup?
If anything I think we need more cup competitions alongside more internationals.

I don't see why an inability to sell out Wembley "says a lot" about the Challenge Cup when 2 teams with a larger combined support can't sell out a smaller, closer stadium for the "pinnacle of the season". Not to mention the Cup Final generally gets a higher attendance than the Grand Final.

Sam Burgess is the best player from our country to have ever played in the Australian competition,I would even go as far to say that he is the best English player ever to play the game

I'm hoping for a cameo return to the Bulls for his last season before retirement

sal he will be back in the nrl as soon as his bath contract ends, if he doesn't make the world cup squad then he will be back to south sydney possibly even sooner

he has gone to rugger to prove that he can master the game and play it at the highest level but he has also gone there to give his body a rest from the nrl and to prolong his nrl career long term

Absolute hyperbole.

You could argue of this generation and not be wrong, but ever? really?

He's gone to Yawnion for one reason. Exposure.

We may have the best game but we are light years behind in respect of exposure of our top stars in a global sense. Thus their ability to make £££.

Sam will go to Bath, probably be a decent success in what he does at club level, but unless he makes the England team and the England team go onto success in the upcoming Yawnion world cup he will be branded a failure by the RU lickspittles.

SBW had the advantage of playing in arguably one of the best RU sides going, Sam will not.

It would appear that Bath intend to play Sam in the back row with a proposed mid December debut. This is perhaps understandable considering Bath have Eastmond & Joseph playing well in the centres but they are lacking depth in the forwards.

While for England it is more likely he will play inside centre.

For both club and country the talk is to let him play his natural game and not worry too much about his lack of Union expertise.

Burgess has just signed for Dewsbury Rams today

[url=http://s255.photobucket.com/user/LS16_Rhino/media/SamB1_zpse3773cf7.png.html[/url

[url=http://s255.photobucket.com/user/LS16_Rhino/media/SamB2_zps804b5746.png.html[/url

Absolutely zero chance of him playing one position for his club and a completely different one for his country.

Best English player of this generation. I can only go back to the early 90s, but even with that frame of reference he isn't a better rugby player than Ellery Hanley, who is probably alongside Darren Lockyer, Mal Meninga, Brad Fittler and Andrew Johns among the best players of any nationality I have seen play the game.

Sonny Bill Williams still has time to join that group if he stops d*cking around in Union. Ditto Sam Burgess, but he still has a bit to do yet to make that elite group.

Others with longer memories (and lifespans) could no doubt add to this list.

Will be wasted in Union, sadly. He's genetically engineered for Rugby League. He won't have the same impact in Union.

I have not been that fussed about any defections to RU in the past, but this is an exception. I think it's a tragic loss of a genuine star player with the presence on and off the filed to raise the profile of the international game in particular. I have no doubt that a big part of the success of the last world cup was down to the mouthwatering prospect of an England team with someone who could run over and stop anyone the Aussies or Kiwis could put on the field. And he delivered, even if the team didn't quite. He could have (and should have) led our national side (which really needs to be GB, not bloody England) for some time.

I agree completely with you, he will be utterly wasted in Union. If he'd grown up playing the game he would have probably been a world class player, but my 11 year old has instinctive ruck skills he's developed over the last 4 years, he doesn't even think about it - and that is what Burgess will have to be like if he is going to play back row. At centre you might be able to get away with learning on the job for a couple of years but back row forwards have to be at most breakdowns - that's their job - to win and secure ball. It's complex, and a penalty minefield.
I may be proved wrong, I often am but I think if England want to use him as a centre then it simply confirms how inept and clueless the England management have been regarding the development of the England backline (although I see they have enlisted the assistance of Brian Ashton on a part time basis so maybe the message is getting through that they don't know what they are doing).

As well as his obvious physical gifts, I think the secret of Sam Burgess's success lies in his attitude, and it's very obviously present in his BBC interview on arriving at Bath. He is willing to work, always willing to learn and never too big for his boots.

Because of all that, he can master Union as a back-rower (which is where he has to play, he's quick and agile for a forward, but even in RU he isn't a back) but I don't think he can do it in time to make the World Cup squad ahead of the likes of Ben Morgan, Tom Wood, Chris Robshaw, Tom Croft, Billy Vunipola etc. Morgan and Vunipola will carry and offload almost as well as Sam Burgess can, but crucially they are years ahead of him in awareness at the breakdown. Most back-rowers are expected to be a back-up option at line-outs as well at Test level. I just don't think Sam Burgess's superior athleticism in the loose is going to be enough, in that time frame.

I hope the lad makes the grade. The crucial point is which position will he play in. Also he needs to be given time.
Any failure on his part whether major or minor will encourage the broad sheet sports journilsts to put boot the boot in.
Stephen Jones and Stuart Barnes are not big fans of league players crossing over.
As for various claims about Burgess being one of the best players of all times, I think not , maybe in the future.
I can think of several players who I would put ahead of Burgess. The main one being Mal Reilly.

The irony is England could have the best player in Europe, Stefan Armitage, in the back row but won't select him while he plays in France. It's rediculous, this isn't kids mini rugby where you reward lads that turn up and train every week, it's international rugby where you put your best 15 on the pitch. I know the ruling is supposed to be because French teams are not particularly helpful when it comes to releasing their highly paid talent for the endless friendly matches the RFU likes to put on to raise the huge piles of cash they like to roll around in, and it's also designed to help prevent an exodus of English players but it's another example of English rugby dogmatism that makes me cringe.

DHM you are quite correct with your Armitage comment , the lad is playing well so pick him.
Whilst many on this foroum don't care for union I enjoy many of the internationals and the six nations.
It's ironic that on the week end we played the Australians at league, attendance approx twenty thousand ,over fifty thousand watched the barbarians game at twickenham . I watched most of that game, it was nothing more than a warm up match for the Aussie team.
I gave up on watching the all blacks in Chicago , it was not even a good training session .
The attendance at that game was over sixty thousand.

I am not so sure. If he is played by his club in the back row I do not see why England cannot play him at 12 because he really could be devastating wherever he plays. It would be a good learning curve to try a couple of positions.

I would play him at inside centre and agree with Sir Clive Woodward that he must join the England camp asap and be in the squad for the World Cup. At the very least he could provide from the bench sufficient impact to turn a game around in 10 minutes. However I think he will be a quick learner and and his positives will more than outweigh any lack of Union nous.

Mike Ford sees him as a forward

"Whatever happens, Ford has pledged not to dilute the strengths which have made Burgess a legend in league. “The way we are trying to play at Bath will suit Sam’s style and Sam’s skill-set. More than half the rugby league players to come across have been signed for what they can do in league, then changed as a union player. I’m pretty adamant that one thing I won’t do is change Sam. The gameplan will suit him and the 14 other people on the field. It’s not just about Sam. But I’d be stupid to put him on the wing, wouldn’t I?

“Maybe I am a coach who sees things differently to, say, Stuart Lancaster, who has to win an international and only gets one chance. I get 22 chances in the Premiership, so I can afford to experiment a bit and see what his best position is. I want the best 15 players on the field.”

[urlhttp://www.theguardian.com/sport/2014/oct/30/sam-burgess-debut-back-row-bath-england[/url


Jason Robinson sees him as an inside centre:

"There's no doubt in my mind that he'll play a massive part for England,".

"People ask, 'is he capable of doing it in such a short space of time?'.
"They're looking at 11 months until the Rugby World Cup. Can he play for England?
"My journey proves that it can be done. I came over in November and, by February, I was playing for England. In June I was on the Lions tour! I have no doubt Sam Burgess will be playing for England, it's just a case of when. It's going to be exciting.

"We've got Manu Tuilagi, who's probably England's first choice in the centre. Luther Burrell is a strong player, great going forward, but I think Sam has got something in him that even those two players don't have."

"I've not seen many players, if any, that pound for pound can physically hit people like he does.

"He's a very intimidating figure. He's one of the best in the world.
"It's a shame that Bath play so far away from where I live [in Huddersfield because I'd be down there every week just looking for that collision."

He adds: "People have talked about him at back row, I've heard somebody say on the wing, but he's got to go straight into the centre.

"What Bath and hopefully England need to do is keep it simple. When I made the switch from league to union, the reason why I believe I did so well is I kept it simple. I did what came naturally to me and, as a result, I stood out from most others. That's the same with Sam.

"The first time I took the ball into a ruck, I got kicked to bits. That made me present the ball back a lot better. I think Sam will be a quick learner. He's going to come in, not as this superstar from the NRL but as a Yorkshire lad who loves rugby. He's got a new challenge.




Sir Clive Woodward says:

"One thing is for sure: Burgess is intent on making a good fist of it. He has signed for three years. This is not a short-term flit into another sport, a la Sonny Bill Williams, who has returned to the All Blacks fold after facing Burgess recently on rugby league terrain.
Burgess will be a success. It is only a question of how long it takes.

"The big question is, where do you play him? Most of the successful converts have either played on the wing or at full back. But Burgess does not have the pace to play in the back three. Nor do I see him being any better than our current crop of forwards — so he must be played at inside centre.

He cannot be involved in the autumn internationals because of injury, but Stuart Lancaster must bring him into the squad at the earliest opportunity. The midfield is the biggest question mark over the England starting XV. Its outcome after the autumn internationals and Six Nations will have a huge impact on the World Cup."

"Burgess must be encouraged to play his natural game, rather than try to mould himself overnight into a ‘textbook 12’. He will learn union in time, but it’s important it comes on top of what he already has. This is where Jason Robinson was so successful with England and Australia’s Israel Folau entered the sport in similar fashion.

They backed their skill-set and continued doing what they did best in league, effectively forcing opponents to adapt to them — not the other way round. England already have a physical midfield. They have been playing big guys like Brad Barritt, Billy Twelvetrees and Manu Tuilagi; but no one comes bigger or more ferocious than Burgess. He’s not going to turn out like Mike Catt or Will Greenwood — both natural playmakers who relied on vision more than physicality — but he has the ability to draw in three or four players at a time. Burgess playing alongside Tuilagi would be interesting to watch!"

South Africa or New Zealand won’t be afraid of his size, but they will be afraid of his passing and off-loading. Many underestimate just how good league players’ basic skills are. If England can work out a way of exploiting that then they could be on to something very special. England have some solid options at 12, but none of them make you go ‘wow’.

That’s where Burgess is different. If Lancaster can slot him into that spot alongside a fly-half brave enough to stand flat, and with the footwork and touch to find him some clean air, then that 10-12 combination would ask a lot of any defence.

Burgess could be used to release the entire back line; this was the most significant effect of Sonny Bill Williams for the All Blacks.
Most players only get the chance to play in one World Cup and my concern is that he is held back until 2019. That would lead to a lot of ‘what ifs’ and ‘if onlys’ if England go on to lose in the semi-final or the final next year. You have to throw everything at next year’s World Cup. This guy could be what England are missing.

I admire the culture Lancaster has created in the England camp, where you have to earn your stripes. But Burgess has earned his call-up with what he has already achieved in league. Would the other players want him there? Absolutely. When Robinson arrived he lifted the whole camp; he turned a very good team into a really scary team. You get no second chances at the World Cup.

[urlhttp://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/article-2814942/Sam-Burgess-power-make-England-scary-Stuart-Lancaster-play-inside-centre.html[/url


Sam Burgess says:

“I’m coming in as an outsider,” Burgess said. “I understand that. It is not going to be an easy transition. But I don’t lack belief. A lot of athletes believe in themselves, set themselves goals. I don’t think I am lacking in that. The weight of expectation does not bother me. I have learnt to do with it in Australian rugby league.”

Burgess also revealed that he had had several chats with former NSW Waratahs’ coach Michael Cheika, brother of a friend of Burgess, and believed him “to be the right man for the Wallabies … who can turn them around”. The media blitz lasted four hours. Burgess took it all in his stride. He is not easily fazed. One thing is for sure. He will make his mark in union, no matter where he plays.

I don't care about Sam burgess anymore, he plays his rugby elsewhere now (quote the late prejudice Bill mclaren) nothing to do with rugbly league any more and nothing to do with Leeds Rhinos.

Big Sam has made big impression at Bath and looks set for his RU debut this Friday despite just two weeks training. Live on BT Sport

I'm trying but it's still hard