Not sure of the exact number although I think I could name the previous four plus McDermott.

__________

Warrington at least had something to play for but managed to pick up more injuries and a likely suspension - Leeds have nothing to play for and will be hoping the same fate doesn't await them.

More to the point - only one Leeds coach has managed to win two Championships, one World Club Championship and One Cup final. A stat that must have been hard for you to record and obviously even harder to acknowledge. Just in case you have chosen not to record this historic achievement I will give you a clue ...his name starts with Brian and ends with McDermott

No stat has been any harder or any easier for me to record than any other since 1979.

It only gets difficult when trying to backfill the information from before the date I started to keep my own records as Leeds isn't well served in that department. It infuriates me when Wigan and Warrington players (last night) are both able to wear their unique player number and the Leeds players cannot do likewise.

What was Roy Francis' record as Leeds coach?

Yes but some stats are harder for you to acknowledge.

I like to see the players in position numbers 1-13. You have to earn the shirt each week

I liked Roy Francis and during his first spell as coach got to know most of the players socially through Ron Cowan who was a personal friend. Francis produced some good young players and played an attractive style of open rugby. Now critics would call it a risky style or 'Harlem Globetrotters' stuff. His success as a coach included the famous water splash Cup final victory and one maybe two Yorkshire Cups. He also got us to be league leaders on more than one occasion one of which was a premiership title.

Have Leeds issued a 19 for this game?

Sal - strongest 19 available: www.therhinos.co.uk/news/23798.php#.VBLffvldVLE ___________ Juan - Warrington players have their personal unique club number above the club crest, Wigan's are displayed on the sleeve. These are the numbers to which I referred. Leeds were the first SL club to try this but opted to follow a ten appearance rule (why ?) and now don't bother at all. For a club with Leeds' long and proud history I find this an embarrassing situation but perhaps that's just me. I have no difficulty in acknowledging stats if necessary. I used to maintain a thread on here devoted to doing nothing much else but unfortunately other commitments have seen it lapse. viewtopic.php?f=17&t=341569

Sal - strongest 19 available: www.therhinos.co.uk/news/23798.php#.VBLffvldVLE ___________ Juan - Warrington players have their personal unique club number above the club crest, Wigan's are displayed on the sleeve. These are the numbers to which I referred. Leeds were the first SL club to try this but opted to follow a ten appearance rule (why ?) and now don't bother at all. For a club with Leeds' long and proud history I find this an embarrassing situation but perhaps that's just me. I have no difficulty in acknowledging stats if necessary. I used to maintain a thread on here devoted to doing nothing much else but unfortunately other commitments have seen it lapse. viewtopic.php?f=17&t=341569

Rugby League in general is distinctly lacking when it comes to the preservation of stats and historical records. Some of the best work has always been compiled independently by supporters themselves... Wigan and St Helens supporters providing two of the best independent online resources on their clubs. The Leeds club has been particularly poor at maintaining its historical record and... Ken Dalby aside... the supporter base hasn't produced anyone enthusiastic enough to do the job instead.

Apart from annual editions of the excellent Rothmans RL Yearbooks from 1981/82 until 1999, there's been hardly anything else worthy of note.

Agree with this. It's very difficult to find stats and records.

RL Project are making a valiant effort but there should be some kind of governing body approach to it, be it national or international.

I don't know what the situation is like for other sports but I'm often annoyed by the lack of available info on RL and it's history.

Quote ="tvoc"Sal - strongest 19 available: www.therhinos.co.uk/news/23798.php#.VBLffvldVLE ___________ Juan - Warrington players have their personal unique club number above the club crest, Wigan's are displayed on the sleeve. These are the numbers to which I referred. Leeds were the first SL club to try this but opted to follow a ten appearance rule (why ?) and now don't bother at all. For a club with Leeds' long and proud history I find this an embarrassing situation but perhaps that's just me. I have no difficulty in acknowledging stats if necessary. I used to maintain a thread on here devoted to doing nothing much else but unfortunately other commitments have seen it lapse. viewtopic.php?f=17&t=341569'" I noticed Wigan's numbers last night.I had already seen on Boots n all about Warrington doing this last year and thought it was a great idea.Should be something that is brought in at all clubs imo.

Quote ="tvoc"Sal - strongest 19 available: www.therhinos.co.uk/news/23798.php#.VBLffvldVLE ___________ Juan - Warrington players have their personal unique club number above the club crest, Wigan's are displayed on the sleeve. These are the numbers to which I referred. Leeds were the first SL club to try this but opted to follow a ten appearance rule (why ?) and now don't bother at all. For a club with Leeds' long and proud history I find this an embarrassing situation but perhaps that's just me. I have no difficulty in acknowledging stats if necessary. I used to maintain a thread on here devoted to doing nothing much else but unfortunately other commitments have seen it lapse. viewtopic.php?f=17&t=341569'" I noticed Wigan's numbers last night.I had already seen on Boots n all about Warrington doing this last year and thought it was a great idea.Should be something that is brought in at all clubs imo.

I'm not totally sure what you are all on about with the numbers. If I understand / assume right are you meaning that each player gets a number in terms of being 'player number x' to have ever played for the team?

So like if Leeds did it, Sinners might have #126 on his, Kylie like #806, whereas Robbie Ward will have #3714 as he is more recent*. Is that what you are on about?

nb. * = To the pedants, I know these numbers are way off, I am just being a bit tongue-in-cheek about how long Sinners has been around for.

But why do you deem it necessary to only acknowledge Brian McDermott's negative stats? Never a mention of his achievement as our most successful coach ever!

that is correct.

It's Something that has been used in the Cricket for a while.

Quote ="Jamie101"I'm not totally sure what you are all on about with the numbers. If I understand / assume right are you meaning that each player gets a number in terms of being 'player number x' to have ever played for the team?'" Correct. Can't say I'm sure of the basis for each club but for example this is the stated criteria for the Warrington club - =#0000BFThe players have been placed in chronological order, starting with the 15 Wirepullers who took to the field against Hunslet for their first match under Northern Union rules, in September 1895 - here www.wire2wolves.com/wolfbites.ph ... se_level=2 Quote ="Jamie101"So like if Leeds did it, Sinners might have #126 on his, Kylie like #806, whereas Robbie Ward will have #3714 as he is more recent*. Is that what you are on about? nb. * = To the pedants, I know these numbers are way off, I am just being a bit tongue-in-cheek about how long Sinners has been around for.'" Leeds actually (if memory serves) got in there first but made such an half-baked attempt (10 appearance requirement) - it simply faded away. I've maintained a list on that same basis (latest entrant - number 742 Paul Aiton) but the Warrington and Wigan clubs now are into four figure numbers which indicates how many Leeds players have potentially missed out. Another indicator is the number of Leeds players with less than ten appearances to their name since the start of SL. In total Leeds have used 170 - 32 of these never made the required ten appearances and are no longer at the club, a further 12 have debuted but are still to reach the qualifying mark. All 42 presumably would already have earned a number had they been at Warrington.

Quote ="Jamie101"I'm not totally sure what you are all on about with the numbers. If I understand / assume right are you meaning that each player gets a number in terms of being 'player number x' to have ever played for the team?'" Correct. Can't say I'm sure of the basis for each club but for example this is the stated criteria for the Warrington club - =#0000BFThe players have been placed in chronological order, starting with the 15 Wirepullers who took to the field against Hunslet for their first match under Northern Union rules, in September 1895 - here www.wire2wolves.com/wolfbites.ph ... se_level=2 Quote ="Jamie101"So like if Leeds did it, Sinners might have #126 on his, Kylie like #806, whereas Robbie Ward will have #3714 as he is more recent*. Is that what you are on about? nb. * = To the pedants, I know these numbers are way off, I am just being a bit tongue-in-cheek about how long Sinners has been around for.'" Leeds actually (if memory serves) got in there first but made such an half-baked attempt (10 appearance requirement) - it simply faded away. I've maintained a list on that same basis (latest entrant - number 742 Paul Aiton) but the Warrington and Wigan clubs now are into four figure numbers which indicates how many Leeds players have potentially missed out. Another indicator is the number of Leeds players with less than ten appearances to their name since the start of SL. In total Leeds have used 170 - 32 of these never made the required ten appearances and are no longer at the club, a further 12 have debuted but are still to reach the qualifying mark. All 42 presumably would already have earned a number had they been at Warrington.

I weren't aware that I did/do anymore or any less than for any previous Leeds coach for which I have the figures.

Most successful by which measure?

Roy Francis IMO was a genius who transformed RL in this country. The success he brought to Headingley wasn't achieved overnight on the back of proven players but his legacy endured long after he'd gone.

Then you won't mind providing links to show where you recorded his winning achievements then.




You claim to collect and record stats and records. So the most important measure is which Leeds coach is the most successful in terms of Championships and Challenge Cups ? What other coach has a better record? what other coach has an equal record?



I have already said that I rated Roy Francis highly and he was also successful but didn't achieve the championships that Mac has achieved. Big Mac inherited a proven squad but the senior players were past their best days, days which Smith and Bluey enjoyed.

Quote ="tvoc"Correct. Can't say I'm sure of the basis for each club but for example this is the stated criteria for the Warrington club - =#0000BFThe players have been placed in chronological order, starting with the 15 Wirepullers who took to the field against Hunslet for their first match under Northern Union rules, in September 1895 - here www.wire2wolves.com/wolfbites.ph ... se_level=2 Leeds actually (if memory serves) got in there first but made such an half-baked attempt (10 appearance requirement) - it simply faded away. I've maintained a list on that same basis (latest entrant - number 742 Paul Aiton) but the Warrington and Wigan clubs now are into four figure numbers which indicates how many Leeds players have potentially missed out. Another indicator is the number of Leeds players with less than ten appearances to their name since the start of SL. In total Leeds have used 170 - 32 of these never made the required ten appearances and are no longer at the club, a further 12 have debuted but are still to reach the qualifying mark. All 42 presumably would already have earned a number had they been at Warrington.'" Ah ok, thanks. Good effort sir!

Quote ="tvoc"Correct. Can't say I'm sure of the basis for each club but for example this is the stated criteria for the Warrington club - =#0000BFThe players have been placed in chronological order, starting with the 15 Wirepullers who took to the field against Hunslet for their first match under Northern Union rules, in September 1895 - here www.wire2wolves.com/wolfbites.ph ... se_level=2 Leeds actually (if memory serves) got in there first but made such an half-baked attempt (10 appearance requirement) - it simply faded away. I've maintained a list on that same basis (latest entrant - number 742 Paul Aiton) but the Warrington and Wigan clubs now are into four figure numbers which indicates how many Leeds players have potentially missed out. Another indicator is the number of Leeds players with less than ten appearances to their name since the start of SL. In total Leeds have used 170 - 32 of these never made the required ten appearances and are no longer at the club, a further 12 have debuted but are still to reach the qualifying mark. All 42 presumably would already have earned a number had they been at Warrington.'" Ah ok, thanks. Good effort sir!

Hmmm...contentious one, this. Not sure how anyone could claim Burrow's best days were behind him in the 2011 play off series, nor Sinfield in 2012. And Peacock was immense in various McD-led play off campaigns. Then there's Ablett and McGuire to consider. I'm a fan of McDermott but I honestly think it's stretching it a bit to make a claim like that unless you throw in the regular season games too. But what we're talking about here is McD's record of delivering trophies. I think that there's several senior players whose performances definitely matched those they put in under his predecessors - but almost exclusively in the most vital games.

Quote ="Juan Cornetto" Then you won't mind providing links to show where you recorded his winning achievements then.'" I wouldn't know how to post links to my spreadsheets. They are not on the internet so I don't think I can? As stated I wasn't aware that I've regarded the trophies Leeds have won over the past four seasons any differently to any others they've won previously. What I'd like to see is a list of Leeds coaches sat alongside the trophies won during their tenure but unfortunately I don't have access to such a list so I would personally find it difficult to acknowledge such statements as 'our most successful coach ever' without first seeing the evidence to back it up. I would also regard trophies won as an important element but not the only element to adjudge a coach's success. Quote ="Juan Cornetto"You claim to collect and record stats and records. So the most important measure is which Leeds coach is the most successful in terms of Championships and Challenge Cups ? What other coach has a better record? what other coach has an equal record?'" See above. I don't have the stats - the opening few lines of the Approaching Milestones thread here viewtopic.php?f=17&t=341569 states when my records began and the limitation of reference prior to this date extends equally to the coaches - if you wish to add some detail prior to 1979 then please do so. I have some names (coach or then equivalents) but no precise dates - 1930's Billy Smith (Trainer), 1940's Frank Dawson, 1950's Ken Dalby (Team Manager), 1960's Roy Francis, 1970's Derek Turner, Roy Francis again and Syd Hynes - which is where I came in. If you or anyone else wish to input some detail then please do so. Quote ="Juan Cornetto"I have already said that I rated Roy Francis highly and he was also successful but didn't achieve the championships that Mac has achieved. Big Mac inherited a proven squad but the senior players were past their best days, days which Smith and Bluey enjoyed.'" Roy Francis was a coaching genius. He took over a fading Leeds side and transformed them through a mix of promising juniors - Hynes, Shoebottom, Seabourne, Batten and later arguably his greatest gift to Leeds John Holmes while also adding astute signings such as Poole, Lockwood, Clark, Ramsey and Risman (a player rejuvenated under Francis) to form a team whose play regularly devastated their opponents with entertaining rugby at it's core. While the '68 Wembley final was a lottery due to the conditions the Leeds team swept away Wigan (Boston et al) in the semi-final at Swinton playing total rugby. Wigan would get their revenge in the play-offs that season while facing an understrength Leeds at Headingley - can happen to any side in a one-off knock-out game - but Leeds were supreme under Francis - Champions or not. Roy Francis' second stint in charge was followed by Syd Hynes who coached in a period where the Champions were decided on a top of the table basis rather than Championship Play-Off - and Leeds were far too inconsistent to ever finish top during his tenure (not unlike every season under the present coach) but Leeds still reached and won all seven finals they contested under Hynes' leadership.

Quote ="Juan Cornetto" Then you won't mind providing links to show where you recorded his winning achievements then.'" I wouldn't know how to post links to my spreadsheets. They are not on the internet so I don't think I can? As stated I wasn't aware that I've regarded the trophies Leeds have won over the past four seasons any differently to any others they've won previously. What I'd like to see is a list of Leeds coaches sat alongside the trophies won during their tenure but unfortunately I don't have access to such a list so I would personally find it difficult to acknowledge such statements as 'our most successful coach ever' without first seeing the evidence to back it up. I would also regard trophies won as an important element but not the only element to adjudge a coach's success. Quote ="Juan Cornetto"You claim to collect and record stats and records. So the most important measure is which Leeds coach is the most successful in terms of Championships and Challenge Cups ? What other coach has a better record? what other coach has an equal record?'" See above. I don't have the stats - the opening few lines of the Approaching Milestones thread here viewtopic.php?f=17&t=341569 states when my records began and the limitation of reference prior to this date extends equally to the coaches - if you wish to add some detail prior to 1979 then please do so. I have some names (coach or then equivalents) but no precise dates - 1930's Billy Smith (Trainer), 1940's Frank Dawson, 1950's Ken Dalby (Team Manager), 1960's Roy Francis, 1970's Derek Turner, Roy Francis again and Syd Hynes - which is where I came in. If you or anyone else wish to input some detail then please do so. Quote ="Juan Cornetto"I have already said that I rated Roy Francis highly and he was also successful but didn't achieve the championships that Mac has achieved. Big Mac inherited a proven squad but the senior players were past their best days, days which Smith and Bluey enjoyed.'" Roy Francis was a coaching genius. He took over a fading Leeds side and transformed them through a mix of promising juniors - Hynes, Shoebottom, Seabourne, Batten and later arguably his greatest gift to Leeds John Holmes while also adding astute signings such as Poole, Lockwood, Clark, Ramsey and Risman (a player rejuvenated under Francis) to form a team whose play regularly devastated their opponents with entertaining rugby at it's core. While the '68 Wembley final was a lottery due to the conditions the Leeds team swept away Wigan (Boston et al) in the semi-final at Swinton playing total rugby. Wigan would get their revenge in the play-offs that season while facing an understrength Leeds at Headingley - can happen to any side in a one-off knock-out game - but Leeds were supreme under Francis - Champions or not. Roy Francis' second stint in charge was followed by Syd Hynes who coached in a period where the Champions were decided on a top of the table basis rather than Championship Play-Off - and Leeds were far too inconsistent to ever finish top during his tenure (not unlike every season under the present coach) but Leeds still reached and won all seven finals they contested under Hynes' leadership.

Quote ="tvoc"I wouldn't know how to post links to my spreadsheets. They are not on the internet so I don't think I can? As stated I wasn't aware that I've regarded the trophies Leeds have won over the past four seasons any differently to any others they've won previously. What I'd like to see is a list of Leeds coaches sat alongside the trophies won during their tenure but unfortunately I don't have access to such a list so I would personally find it difficult to acknowledge such statements as 'our most successful coach ever' without first seeing the evidence to back it up. I would also regard trophies won as an important element but not the only element to adjudge a coach's success. See above. I don't have the stats - the opening few lines of the Approaching Milestones thread here viewtopic.php?f=17&t=341569 states when my records began and the limitation of reference prior to this date extends equally to the coaches - if you wish to add some detail prior to 1979 then please do so. I have some names (coach or then equivalents) but no precise dates - 1930's Billy Smith (Trainer), 1940's Frank Dawson, 1950's Ken Dalby (Team Manager), 1960's Roy Francis, 1970's Derek Turner, Roy Francis again and Syd Hynes - which is where I came in. If you or anyone else wish to input some detail then please do so. Roy Francis was a coaching genius. He took over a fading Leeds side and transformed them through a mix of promising juniors - Hynes, Shoebottom, Seabourne, Batten and later arguably his greatest gift to Leeds John Holmes while also adding astute signings such as Poole, Lockwood, Clark, Ramsey and Risman (a player rejuvenated under Francis) to form a team whose play regularly devastated their opponents with entertaining rugby at it's core. While the '68 Wembley final was a lottery due to the conditions the Leeds team swept away Wigan (Boston et al) in the semi-final at Swinton playing total rugby. Wigan would get their revenge in the play-offs that season while facing an understrength Leeds at Headingley - can happen to any side in a one-off knock-out game - but Leeds were supreme under Francis - Champions or not. Roy Francis' second stint in charge was followed by Syd Hynes who coached in a period where the Champions were decided on a top of the table basis rather than Championship Play-Off - and Leeds were far too inconsistent to ever finish top during his tenure (not unlike every season under the present coach) but Leeds still reached and won all seven finals they contested under Hynes' leadership.'" My favourite game of all time that semi-final at Swinton in 1968 where we beat Wigan 25-4 with a side coached by Roy Francis playing sublime RL. Many of that side went on to win an Ashes and a World Cup playing in GB colours

Quote ="tvoc"I wouldn't know how to post links to my spreadsheets. They are not on the internet so I don't think I can? As stated I wasn't aware that I've regarded the trophies Leeds have won over the past four seasons any differently to any others they've won previously. What I'd like to see is a list of Leeds coaches sat alongside the trophies won during their tenure but unfortunately I don't have access to such a list so I would personally find it difficult to acknowledge such statements as 'our most successful coach ever' without first seeing the evidence to back it up. I would also regard trophies won as an important element but not the only element to adjudge a coach's success. See above. I don't have the stats - the opening few lines of the Approaching Milestones thread here viewtopic.php?f=17&t=341569 states when my records began and the limitation of reference prior to this date extends equally to the coaches - if you wish to add some detail prior to 1979 then please do so. I have some names (coach or then equivalents) but no precise dates - 1930's Billy Smith (Trainer), 1940's Frank Dawson, 1950's Ken Dalby (Team Manager), 1960's Roy Francis, 1970's Derek Turner, Roy Francis again and Syd Hynes - which is where I came in. If you or anyone else wish to input some detail then please do so. Roy Francis was a coaching genius. He took over a fading Leeds side and transformed them through a mix of promising juniors - Hynes, Shoebottom, Seabourne, Batten and later arguably his greatest gift to Leeds John Holmes while also adding astute signings such as Poole, Lockwood, Clark, Ramsey and Risman (a player rejuvenated under Francis) to form a team whose play regularly devastated their opponents with entertaining rugby at it's core. While the '68 Wembley final was a lottery due to the conditions the Leeds team swept away Wigan (Boston et al) in the semi-final at Swinton playing total rugby. Wigan would get their revenge in the play-offs that season while facing an understrength Leeds at Headingley - can happen to any side in a one-off knock-out game - but Leeds were supreme under Francis - Champions or not. Roy Francis' second stint in charge was followed by Syd Hynes who coached in a period where the Champions were decided on a top of the table basis rather than Championship Play-Off - and Leeds were far too inconsistent to ever finish top during his tenure (not unlike every season under the present coach) but Leeds still reached and won all seven finals they contested under Hynes' leadership.'" My favourite game of all time that semi-final at Swinton in 1968 where we beat Wigan 25-4 with a side coached by Roy Francis playing sublime RL. Many of that side went on to win an Ashes and a World Cup playing in GB colours

Yeah, but had McDermott been the coach they would have won the play offs too. No really.

Didn't Joe Warham coach in '58, winning the clubs first Championship, and again when Roy Francis left in '69 - again winning the Championship? He was also the scout that brought so much fantastic talent for Francis to utilise.

Not a bad effort from my old games teacher.

Ha ha...with McDermott or indeed any modern day coach (perhaps with the exception of Powell) in charge we'd have been treated to predictable, ploddy, over structured highly athletic stuff that was/is almost instantly forgettable. (I may be falling out of love with 'The Greatest Game')

Slippery and evasive as ever tvoc. You know my question was nothing to do with spreadsheets.

The point that I made was your apparent one eyed enthusiasm to make many negative posts with regard to Big Mac but a distinct reluctance to acknowledge his positive achievements.

So which Leeds coach has achieved the best collection of trophies in both the Super league era and also since you started collecting records whenever that was?

The first Championship was 1960/61 and you are right about Joe Wareham bringing in all the young talent which could be described as our first "golden generation". As Roy Francis (coach in the mid-sixties) said later, with players that talented he had no need to coach or drill them - he sent them on to the pitch to play their natural game.

And my response is that I have not viewed anything won under McDermott in any way less or differently to anything won under previous coaches.

I hear the oft now repeated claim that McDermott is =#FF0000the most successful coach Leeds have ever had and merely question by which set of criteria this success is being measured and how his record compares to Leeds coaches of the past.

People using the claim (as you did at the top of the previous page) presumably know it to be an accurate statement and - it may be an accurate statement, I simply don't know but would at least like to find out first. During some research I came across the following from Phil Caplan in the Leeds Rhinos Miscellany regarding coaches -

"The arrival of revolutionary Welshman Roy Francis in 1963 heralded the start of coaches having a major impact and profile at Headingley. His innovative methods centred principally on fitness, speed and ball movement, occasioned the second golden era at the club, cementing the foundations for a period of unprecedented silverwear gathering."

It will be interesting to look back in another fifty years (not that either of us will be able to) to see whose legacy/ies are being credited for Leeds third golden era.



My period of recording Leeds stats is incomplete by the term being used - 'our most successful (in terms of trophies won) coach ever'

Nevertheless including just the Leeds coaches I've collected stats for and therefore - 'our most successful coach in terms of trophies won 1975/76 to 2014'

Syd Hynes - 7
Robin Dewhurst - 0
Maurice Bamford - 1
Malcolm Clift - 0
Peter Fox - 0
Maurice Bamford - 0
Malcolm Reilly - 1
David Ward - 0
Doug Laughton - 0
Dean Bell - 0
Graham Murray - 1
Dean Lance - 0
Daryl Powell - 0
Tony Smith - 4
Brian McClennan - 4
Brian McDermott - 4

If anyone knows any different then please say as the above attempt is by way of piecing different sources together.

_____



Thanks for that - at least someone is trying to fill in the gaps and like me doing so from a period beyond their personal recollection.

It appears (from the reproduced Caplan comment earlier) that the coaching appointments at Headingley only became significant from the revolutionary Roy Francis.

He arrived in 1963 and left in 1968 the vacated post then taken by his 'A' team coach Jack Nelson but he sadly passed away at Christmas that year leaving Joe Warham in a caretaker capacity until the reigns were taken over again this time by Derek 'Rocky' Turner at the start of 1969/70 for four seasons - then the great Eric Ashton for a year - then Francis again for a year before Syd Hynes took on the role initially as the player/coach before hanging up his boots as the 1976/77 season progressed.

-----

Edited with thanks to Him