Not surprisingly Andy R, dumb enough, arrogant enough, and myopic enough, to believe we would have still being successfull without Sinfield. Not really surprising.

Clearly not what I said

They were examples rhinoms, the list would have gone on and on. However, your response showed exactly what I have said. Had the roles being reversed and JJB elsewhere, you would now be saying JJB, WTF. And that's exactly it, he has been lucky enough and played his part, as with a lot of players to be part of this team over the period, and not fundamental to it, which is the difference. It is quite clear it is about the persona JJB and that he plays for Leeds, rather than the second row position.

By the way, was it 2003 that we nearly got Langley? had we been successfull in getting him, I would guess JJB wouldn't have been here throughout the success. Langley was an extremely good player in his prime.

Just to add some balance here. One thing I will give JJB credit for, and something some other players missed a trick on. JJB realised very early just what sort of a player and example Sinfield was, and got close to him very early. They quickly became best of friends, and JJB changed things in his life to follow the example Sinfield was setting. He educated himself further, he pushed himself in community projects, and he is now a good speaker at events. I have no where bagged him on that. But as a supporter of a team, my focus is the on watching the best players I can, and as a player on the pitch, he really isn't the best option we could have had. But would that have meant we would have been any more successfull? no it wouldn't.

Let's not forget this is Gotcha we are on about

on another planet and reads what he wants to read

Oh so ironic, considering the post of Andy R I responded to.

Clearly, absolutely clearly, not what he said. That being the case, why did you respond in suggesting that was what he did say?

As the list could go on and on, please name the 200 people who could have filled the JJB role at leeds, such that we wouldn't have felt a difference

That sounds like a Damo list waiting to happen.

and probably make as much sense

He's suddenly gone quiet. Perhaps he's learning to read so he can debate the points I actually made. I've made it pretty clear at various points on this board that I'm a huge Sinfield fan. I also appreciate what players like JJB, Burrow, McGuire, Ali, Diskin, Webb, JP and various others have contributed to our success. Adding Kevin sinfield to most sides in SL wouldn't have allowed them to beat leeds. He's a great leader, a very very good player and a legend in my eyes, however he'd be the first to admit he needed a good supporting cast around him.

I just got bored of the myopic, arrogant moronic nonsense posted by the few.

Perhaps before jumping you need to practice what you preach, before trying to have a go at others.

Your wording not mine, and what I originally responded to you on, was that I said Sinfield had done it "singlehandedly". Now if you show me where that was said, then you might be worth debating with. I will of course accept your apology if not. But if you should find such a comment, then you can rest assured You would get the same from me.

You did however describe JJB as an average hangeron who could have been replaced by any of 300 players without impact.

Sorry Andy R, I didn't realise you were posting under two different aliases.

So did I say "single handedly" or not?

And I know very well what I put about JJB and I maintain what I put.

you get better & better!

Keep reading what you think you have read!

Laurie, butt out or post something meaningful for once. You are out of Uni now, so grow up boy.

My name is Lawrie, Again you have proved you read what you want to read




better luck next time

If it's private, use the private message function. If it's in the public forum, it's public.

I think I know what you meant about JJB - that he's in the middle 98% (or whatever the number) you define as average.

I am not here to defend Gotcha he can do that on his own but some on here are suggesting JJB is akin to Wayne Pearce or Brad Clyde at his best. The best second row forward to play at Leeds during this era was Ali who was in a different stratosphere in terms of impact and ability. If you want a second row forward who carried a team single handed Greg Bird at Catalans. With the best will in the world JJB - a good player in a very good side - isn't in the same league as either of those two.

On Langley - he was an exceptional centre/second row forward as a junior - captained GB U18 until Noble over bulked him, his body could not cope with the extra bulk and he started having injury problems. Potentially he was the real deal sadly Noble wrecked him.

Where have they done that?



Agree very much with the first point. And somewhat with the 2nd. There were some other decent players in that Dragons side, but I do take your point.




In terms of ability? Probably not. His contribution is not measured (by me at least) interms of pure talent. It's his drive, commitment and will to win that have, in my view, set him apart from other players here and at other clubs blessed with greater ability.



No idea whether that's true or not.

In any event, I would maintain that the debate is not about what other people [ucould[/u have done for Leeds, it's about what JJB [uhas[/u done for Leeds. I don't think anyone has tried to argue that he's the world's greatest back rower, but he has been a phenomenal servant to Leeds, and a lot of success has been built in part on the sheer effort and work rate of JJB, as well as on the talent and dazzling skill of others.

I don't think anyone has tried to say JJB was akin to Wayne Pearce or Bradley Clyde (at his best, not something we saw) or Greg Bird. However Gotcha's description of JJB being average and how he could be replaced by any other second row was more than a little silly.
Kind of agree on Langley - good potential, some good performances, but not for long. I wouldn't put that down to Noble though. To do so overestimates a head coaches role in the S&C, which (in terms of size) is more down to the player and secondly the conditioning coaches, and whilst a HC might set the conditioning strategy I doubt many pursue much different to wanting their players to be as big, strong, fast, agile and powerful as they can be.

I might be a bit controversial on Ali - good as he was he plays a very specific role of left sided impact player. There is a space for that role and there is a space for the hard working second row forward who gets the defensive line up, chases kicks, shows for the ball with a carry or a run off the ball to make space for someone else. A team full of Ali's would be no more effective than a team full of JJBs.

So actually making an assumption on what I said again, instead of what I actually said.

I never said "any other second row", yet again stating something not said, yet preach when it is the other way.

My points on this thread have always been as per the title of the thread, and how it wouldn't have happened without Sinfield. With that in mind, there would be no creaming at the mouth at a replaceable JJB, as he wouldn't have been held in such high regard without the success.

And I also agree with this "There is a space for that role and there is a space for the hard working second row forward who gets the defensive line up, chases kicks, shows for the ball with a carry or a run off the ball to make space for someone else". I am just not so short sighted to believe that there isn't many players out there who do that job also for their team.

How else should we read the post


?

No, but it'd be quite entertaining to watch it win and lose by the odd few points out of 80 every week.

I rate JJB's contribution very highly (see previous posts) but I do think it's probably fair to say that there are more players who can do what JJB does/did than can do what Ali did. Ali at his peak was more or less unique in SL. He had size, power, strength, speed (for such a big guy) and probably the best hands I've ever seen in a big forward. Not sayiing he ws the best forward I've ever seen, but I can't recall many playing in this country with that skill set.

Lets be honest here Ali was a unique player when we signed him as there was very few players in the world at that time who had the ball handling skills that he possessed

I disagree about JJB - I think he has been very lucky to part of an excellent team - he makes a contribution and his effort/will to win cannot be questioned and a great servant to the club. We should not let these qualities cloud our judgement.

You and I will always disagree about the importance of attack over defence - I would much rather have a team of Ali's over a team of JJB's

If you had swopped Wilkin and JJB round would the results of he GF's have been different very unlikely IMO

Finally on Langley - look at the Bradford side at the time he was trying to break in - they were huge - the success of the side was primarily built on their ability to bulldozer other sides. If were a head coach I would want my players to be physically suited to my style of play.