Other than Peacock who is a shoe in, Moon will be the closest other Leeds Rhinos player to a dream team spot this year.

Hall has been to blame on a lot of those occasions you are alluding to. They have only been together for 20 odd games.

Whilst I'm not Keinhorst's biggest fan, I agree with you about Moon's "last resort" offloads.
The round-the-back cocktail-shaker offloads to empty space are like watching Richie Blackmore sometimes.

The same Ryan Hall you said had a bad game at London last week?

Erm, OK.

Moon is a good player. I like him. He's an offensive threat. But his service to Hall is a million miles behind Seniors and Abletts and is no better than Keinhorst.

As you say, it's early in their partnership and I hope to see it improve. That doesn't negate that it has been below par up to press.

And yet it's funny how we had the same sort of comments when Hardaker was his centre too. Yet he got more tries with Hardaker there then he did with Ablett there.

Nobody his going to give it like Senior in his prime, he even made Cummins look the worlds best. Moon has a lot of other qualities, and it is up to Hall to think faster on some of those occassions to make sure he benefits.

He can't have all the praise when it's all laid on a plate for him, and then get all the excuses when it's not.

Compare and contrast to last week at London, on the right side of the field. BJB was fully understanding what Watkins was doing.

Back to Keinhorst, how many did he lay on for Hall then?

Yes lets do that. A couple of lovely passes from Watkins, showing very quick hands, put BJB away. BJB finished well.

Had Moon given Hall a couple of similar opportunities I am certain, giving Hall's finishing abilities he'd have had a couple of tries added to his prodigious game stats.

Moon put Hall away twice against London, and certainly on one of them should have been an easy try for him, he blew it.

The point is, that Watkins was fast hands without full control, but BJB was there. I don't believe for one minute Hall would have got on the second of those passes. That is not putting down Hall, becausae that was down to an understanding with his centre. Some pick it up quicker, others don't.

You complain about the "out the back door" passes that haven't resulted in tries from Moon, Yet what about the ones Hall has actually got from these exact passes. How many actual centres in Super League actually have the skill to do that pass?

Just like Hall has scored many tries that other wingers would not get. Usually down to what he is best at, finishing in tight situations with strength. Quick hands and thinking are not his strengths.

IMO Watkins had full control on both of those lovely fast hands passes. I'd love to see Moon do that.

Why wouldn't you believe that? Would it be Hall's prodigious talent, finishing abilities and reputation?

No issues with his previous centres. Maybe it's the centre not picking things up as quickly?

When have I complained about that?

He doesn't need quickl hands. He needs his centre to have them. As for thinking, you've absolutely no idea. He's a bright bloke is Hall, can do a Rubiks cube and has A levels.

Can you qualify what you mean, in rugby terms by "thinking" because I think you've just used a word because it popped into your head. Never mind meaning or context.

It's quite simple, thinking on the rugby pitch is completely difference to thinking at a desk. You have to do it in a time frame at speed.

I can do a rubics cube, and I also have A levels, I couldn't even think as quick as Hall on the rugby pitch.

His strength is brawn, work ethic, and speed =#FF0000of footwhen he has momentum. What is the problem with that? He is not strong at positioning, often over running his centre no matter who is there.

Why are you trying to turn something into about Hall? The issue was about Moon, and I think the return from that side of the field is as good as any other season. Just because the numbers under Halls name is different, doesn't make the benefit to the side any different.

Moon and Hall are clearly (to me at least) both very classy players. THat the partnership hasn't quite clicked as well as we'd like is a bit disappointing. I think it's also probably something that can be worked on further so I wouldn't want to do away with it just yet. The potential remains, I think.

Watkins and BJB know and understand each other very well. I also don't think Moon is quite as good as Watkins. Watkins is still occasionally a bit raw in places, but for talent and athletic ability, and the quality of his passing he's already well ahead of any other centre in the league in my opinion. Cudjoe probably being next on the list.

Keith Senior's handling skills were not in Watkins' class, but he understood the game, knew when to pass and most of all was such a nightmare when he ran with the ball that defenders inevitably got sucked in to try to stop him which meant he offloaded to wingers (or inside runners - often Danny McGuire in 2004) in space. Ablett plays centre the same way (not as well, but similar in style). Moon is a very different type of player, and that means Hall has to adapt to a different kind of service. Both of them will need to work on it over the off season.

As I said previous post, the "partnership" has only not worked in terms of the number of tries Hall has scored. How many tries have come from that partnership (Hall and Moon) in comparison to other seasons?

Irrelevant unless you can say how many times Hardaker fed Hall.
I don't recall it was very often, Hardaker had a tendency to forget the winger and go himself, plus Hall was very often being tightly marked anyway.
Few people thought Hardaker was a centre and he played wing for Featherstone on the few times I watched him in the Championship, so that's understandable.

With Moon he loves receiving the ball in space (which strong running centre wouldn't?!) but, for me, he never really makes the most of that space. He runs arms open, like he might do some damage but he never looks quite assure of what's 'on' in terms of pass/take on the man. I can see why some have mentioned the 'panic pass' of his. Needs working on. BJB would probably make more out of these balls as his much quicker pace would get him in a tighter space quicker, compared to Hall when that limited window of opporunity may close.

It's very relevant. He might have gone himself, but he also scored plenty tries. The measurement should be on the return from the partnership, not the return on one player.

How many tries did Hall/Hardaker or Hall/Moon score in releation to Hall/Ablett? If the return is similar then the job is done correctly, regardless of what number Hall has.

Leaving aside the gibberish nature of that sentence; the whole discussion has been about Moon's quality of service to Hall. Do you think we can discuss that topic without discussing Hall?

So, essentially, you've finally agreed with what I said. Moon is a good, dangerous player who hasn't utilized Hall as well as previous left centres at leeds have?

Glad you got there in the end even if it was hard work.

No I have said, it is side before individual every time. I don't have the child like hero worship at games that you display. Every player is equal dependent on performance, rather than pre decided agendas.

Hall has failed to take advantage numerous times of Moon's class. Moon on other occassions has scored rather than pass to his winger. Hall on other occassions has scored tries others wouldn't. The bottom line IMO is clear, that it is only relevant when that partnership is failing in terms of tries scored or tries conceeded.

I don't believe, and am waiting to be corrected, that the partnership of Hall and Moon, which you were the one critisizing, or indeed the partnership of Hall and Hardaker, which you again were the one critisizing, have scored any less tries or conceeded any more tries, than the one you hail in Hall and Ablett. Furthermore I am still waiting to hear how many tries Keinhorst has laid on for Hall, which you quick to point out had happened earlier.

Forget the stats on how many did X put away for Y etc.

The burning statistic we all need clarifying is:

How much coffee does Gotcha drink?

Don't drink coffee, just tea and water. I am an addonis

Decided to look at the stats myself, as Gareth really never backs up his claims.

The Hall and Moon partnership is now just five tries short of the Hall and Senior Partnership of 2010. Moon has the same number of try assists as Senior that year, and the season isn't over yet.

One stat I wasn't aware of previous, but explains a lot of these missed try opportunities that I was alluding to. Hall has constantly been in the top two of Leeds error makers per season, since coming into the side. Gives some reasoning, to some of the "alledged" Moon "panic" passes bouncing out of Halls hands.

Furthermore, looked back on every game Keinhorst has played for us, and as suspected, unless the reports are inaccurate, or indeed the videos on some of the matches, he hasn't actually laid on one single try for Hall. Ironically though, Hall has laid on three for Keinhorst.

One thing that has been over-looked re-Moon/Hall partnership is the quality and speed of supply we've sent their way.
Imo far too often our passing outwide whether Left or Right has been slow or forced the reciever to check their runs which gives the defence time to number up out wide.
I think we potentially have as good a back line as any team in this league but they need some decent supply.

It's interesting with all this bagging of Joel Moon going on at the mo, Just how many times he has been in the team of the month in the league papers. As it stands I think he's nailed on for a spot in the dream team come end of season, and it's deserved IMO.

Some people on here get far too concerned with how many passes, assists, metres certain players individually make.

FFS it's a team game that enjoys moments of individual skill/class we've had that this season just enjoy it!!!!!!!!!

Spot on - we criminally underuse our outside backs on both sides of the park.

Watkins has shown time after time what he can do if you give him the ball in a bit of space. I can never understand why we don't shift the ball to him early, get him coming from deep so that he's got some room to manouvre - 1 on 1 most centres in Superleague are really going to struggle to contain him.

Agree with this. Also consider how many of Hall's tries over the past few seasons have involved Brent Webb throwing quick or cut-out passes creating time and space. Hardaker is a massive talent at fullback but that is not yet part of his armoury.

I fully agree with you and you beat me to the same point.

In his heyday Webb joined the line at pace, usually on his favoured left hand side, really as a 2nd standoff and created space for Senior and his winger. Sometime he drew the centre and Senior could burst through the gap and feed Hall or sometimes Webb would as you say throw the cut out pass to the winger. After his serious back injury Webb seemed unable to twist his body as he passed which perhaps was the reason he made so many forward passes in his latter years. Unless of course they were just not spotted before!

Moon is a class centre IMO and of course will make handling errors as he is prepared to take a risk. However Hall has not had his best season and for quite a number of games lacked sharpness and was as much to blame as Moon for chances missed.

Agree with the comment regarding hall missing Webb , i think the whole team is missing the Brent Webb of old, his runs into the line and passing opened up many a defence.
This year I don't think the service to hall has been as good as recent seasons. As I never tire of saying the balance of the team does not seem right at the moment.

Agreed. Dropping two teams from SL and reducing the playoffs to top 6 would hopefully increase the quality of SL.