Well he was 5th choice at the start of 2012 behind Peacock/Leuluai/Bailey/Griffin, highlighted by his non selection in the WCC. He then became 4th when Bailey started at loose when Ablett was moved back to centre (to cover injuries). Obviously didn't work out with the club & Griffin so he stayed at 4th as 2013 began. Now Moore I would suggest has moved ahead of him if he's getting the starts in this recent spell as well as Singleton being the one to start at loose (something I believe they tried with Kirke away to Wakey last year IIRC).

So Griffin not working out & props covering loose in Ablett's absence/centre covering has largely been what has seen Kirke get 4th prop spot. With Singleton establishing himself and the likes of Foster & Sutcliffe (he'll probably end up in the back row upon Sinfield's return) adding to our back row options then I'd say if we get everyone fit I don't think Kirke will make the 17.

Two things. Kirfke has been a regular in the 17 for eight seasons. Eight. Matters not if he's 4th, 3rd or 1st choice. He's a forward in the 17.Everyone in the 17 should have something to contribute. Kylie has spent time coming off the bench whilst at Leeds. It matters not in the modern game if you start on the field or on the bench.It is a myth that he is a "squad player".

Secondly, nobody knows that he earns very little. He has been a first teamer for 8 seasons and recently has drawn interest from the Bulls and Wakefield. I suspect he is on considerably more than the likes of Singleton etc.

A squad player should ideally be someone with aspirations to displace the incumbent. Juniors like Sutcliffe or players signed like Hardaker signed from the Championship. Kirke's aspirations are limited to giving JP a breather.

It sums up Kirke that the best his defenders can come up with is that he may be cheap and he's a squad player. The former is likely to be false and the latter certainly is.

Wish I had under achieved as much at rugby :-p

Gareth mate - he HAS to be cheap. There's no other logical explanation. The ONLY reason he gets a shirt has to be because he's getting paid 12 pence a week. There can be no other reason.

He is a first team player, but he is not a leading player. You cannot have 4 top props on your books. The slaary cap won't allow it, unless you have gash backs.

In terms of contribution you seem to only watch the side of the game where Leeds have the ball. And yes, he is poor to woeful in this area, especially for a man of his size.Howveer, when we are defending his workrate is good, not just in making one up tackles, but being a second or third man in others which allows us to control the tackler get him onto his back and make the PTB slow.

In terms of money, he will almost definitely be on more than Singleton, but thats because he has continued to be part of the squad. He won't be on loads of money, because Leeds have a rigid pay structure, and he's never even got close to any sort of international honours.

You may think that all players may want to oust their rivals from a shirt, but they will also be realistic. Kirke is not capable of what Peacock does, and never will do. There's barely anyone in Super League that can do. I also don't know that he's ever said he's content to give Peacock a breather, although I'm sure you'll have a link somewhere. Also, from a Salary Cap planning point of view, I would say that having a few players who have a glass ceiling in terms of talent is not a bad thing. They are limited but solid enough and will be fairly constant in terms of money.

Overall, I would agree with your comments that he is lucky to be part of such a sucessful club, and on what we see on the pitch there are other people who could fill that spot in SL, however, his type of player, especially in the forwards, are in all of the top sides because the salary cap demands it.

We have a squad that the highest people at the club acknowledge is in part down to getting the best out of the cap, and I don't see why you can't see that Kirke is a part of that.

I'd rather of had a James Graham or a Sam Burgess in our front row these last few years, but not if it meant having Danny Orr instead of McGuire

With Kylie and Bails out for a run....been a good chance for Kirke to step up.

I'll second that

I take all that on board and accept much of it.

I'd say he's adequate to good at Defending though.

I think a bit of balance is required here. I have already posted my disappointment at Kirke's ineffective go-forward display against Warrington.

But on the plus side he made the 3rd most tackles for Leeds with 36 and it should also be pointed out his big improvement in the metre making department this season. He ranks as the best forward for metres per carry of the regulars averaging 7.4 metres per carry with Bailey the last placed forward with 5.4 metres per carry. He has made more tackles, more busts, more marker tackles than Kylie who has been in good form. So it would seem he does a reliable job for his coach and we should remember too he did not want to move into the front row and much prefers the second row.

I view him very much in the same way as Bailey. Both good, solid reliable defenders who are better in the back row running wide but are proven to do a good defensive job around the ruck area as a prop. IMO Kirke has got a new contract because he has shown a real improvement this year in his go forward game. Last Friday he fell back to the his former Bailey type level

The problem with kirke is not his skill or lack of skill its the effort he shows in games. Take Delaney for example, the difference in skill between Delaney and kirke is pretty small but what makes Delaney a good player and liked by most fans is the effort he puts in every week. I can't remember a game in the past few years where Delaney hasn't looked fooked mid way through the game but carries on put his body on the line for the team, where as I can't recall a game where kirke has ever looked tired. He comes off most games looking as fresh as he went on and this is where the issue lies. 36 tackles last week if a fair efforts from him and he may well of been knackered but again he looked fresh which leaves you questioning whether he could have taken more carries and made more tackles.

Kirke is very physically fit. Aside from all the rhinos training he is big into his crossfit training. I agree with your point though re Delaney you can tell he has put everything he has into every game, which is why he is popular with the fans

I find it infuriating (Kirke's lack of effort) and can;t believe the lengths people go to defend/explain it.

Put Delaney's attitude into Kirke's frame and you have the best forward in the world.

We like that type of forward at Leeds thought. Chris Feather and Wayne McDonald also fit into the model of having the build but no heart

Built like Tarzan, plays like Jane.

So now he doesn't look tired enough? I think if you watch him when he's on he works very hard when we defend. Not just tackling but assisting and slowing down other people's. Just because he doesn't look knackered doesn't mean he isn't working hard

I would say that the fact that he's lasted 8 years at the club when the others only managed 3 means he must be doing something well

Perhaps some of the best coaches in the game know something that Kirke's knockers don't?????
But hang on, that cant be right, because they know it all.
He's not the best player in the team, but IMO, he rarely lets the team down.
I often watch replays of the GF matches and he's played a significant part in all those he's played in.

You're right. I've also noticed him leaning on the pile when two or three of his team mates have effected the tackle. Machine!

Will mock me/him if you like but if you really think that's all he's doing then you dont know as much about the way this game is played than you think you do

Chillax.

We've had this discussion many times.

I find Kirke lazy, soft and infuriating. You can see certain qualities in specific aspects of his game (mainly defensive).

The truth is probably somehwere in between our views. But even such a truth makes him a very ordinary player.

....oh and by the way, I think I am well qualified to judge a lazy player, going third man in too look like I am doing something and avoiding the ball at all costs.

I'm not saying he doesn't work hard, the question is he working hard enough. I.e. is he pushing himself to his limits, which I don't believe kirke is.

kirke is a solid squad player. The likes that never get the limelight. every team has/needs theses players.

And at the end of the day, you get what you pay for. bet hes not on a lot....

see I would say that being 3rd man in its the opposite of lazy. It's in addition to his own tackles. It's helping his team mates out by giving them a second or more to get the defence sorted.
I also don't think his lack of carries is because he's lazy, I simply don't think he's very good at it. I'd much rather the people carrying the ball are good at it, like Delaney.

And this I can't get my head around. He's a prop. It should be his primary function. Take us forward. Hence prop "forward".

I like American football but I don't think there's any room in Rugby league for seperate players for attack and defence.