Not at all but "best" is subjective. "Champions" is not. The Champions are the ones who achieve the pre-determined goal.

There's no doubt the Grand Final is one of the greatest things to happen to our modern game. I wouldn't devalue that in any way and would scrap the League Leaders shield all together, like DHM says.

FWIW two out of my three most satisfying Grand Final Wins came when Leeds didn't finish top (2007 and 2011). Of course, 2004 was the most satisfying but not because we finished top. We all remember our first time fondly don't we

?I'm seriously not fussed about the League leadership in any way shape or form. If Leeds get it, nice, if they don't, lets go out and be champions.

Well that's nicely argued.

Ask Jamie Peacock what HE thinks of Sean O'Loughlin then.

If finishing top floats your boat, enjoy it mate.

You won't change the views of the more enlightened posters who have left 1996 and all before it in the past.

We've won it from top. Winning it was great, finshing top was nice but "meh".

It's a consilation for fans whose team blow it from top. Sorry, that's not a dig but it just is.

I know the difference, but thanks for pointing it out. Let's say that the team coming 8th this year losing more games than they win, actually win the GF, does your argument hold. Will you be happy to call Saints the champions if they come 8th and beat you in the GF if you come say 2nd?

That's ok, but you haven't answered my question "Who do you think was the better team, you or Warrington?"

It isn’t necessarily about planning to lose a game, its about planning your training and conditioning to peak at the right time. You cant be at 100% all the time, some teams try to get to a higher level for shorter periods, others a slightly lower level but for longer periods of the season. Wigan seem to try to be at a high level for most of the regular season, it could be argued that this disadvantages them come the end of the year because they are can’t peak at 100% as they haven’t left a lot in the tank, where as other teams haven’t been at as a high a level during the regular season so have a bit more left in the well come the end of the year. Similarly you could also argue that Wigans regular season form is a little misrepresentative as they are conditioned to be at a higher level that their opponents in that regular season.

We all know the score at the beginning of the year. If Wigans training and conditioning is asking too much of them during the regular season then they have only themselves to blame.

Of course I will, because they will BE champions. It cannot be argued either way. The team that wins the Grand Final ARE the Champions. This is fact. END OF.

Do you think the Australians hold such an obsession about where their champions finish the season?

I personally hope a team from 8th wins it. I'd like every team that enters the playoffs to do so with the goal if winning it and not just making up the numbers. I'd like the playoffs to become an intense competition in their own right rather than just a formality to whittle down the numbers to the top two playing each other in the Grand Final.

It's perfectly fair as was the old first past the post system, as was the even older top sixteen play-off system, as was whatever preceded that system just so long as before a ball is kicked in any given year the rules for becoming Champions are left unaltered for the duration of the campaign.

The League Leaders Shield is worth something to some - me included - but no doubt means little to some others but although I rate it as a worthwhile achievement it still doesn't greatly devalue the ultimate title of Champions as decided via the Play-Offs.



A number of the ones they failed to perform well in and no the fans cannot have their money back - in any circumstance as that would be to admit to failings - which will never happen.

Like I said "better" is subjective but if you want my opinion it was us because Champions is a bigger prize than Cup Winners.

I get you. Well argued. But it's not "end of" is it? It is in Football Cos Man U beat everyone else but in RL it's still open to debate WHO THE BEST TEAM ARE not who the Champions are.

I watch every Wigan game home and away, love Rugby League (came over for the WCC) and winning and losing means something to me.

Do you even bother going to the game? It sounds like you aren't much bothered about Leeds form during the season one way or the other. Maybe that's why attendances are down all over the country, nobody is bothered any more. Apart from the playoffs and GF. Actually have you seen the attendances at the playoffs? So it's just the GF then.

I have been a season ticket holder for several years. Our home displays under McDermott have troubled me and I have complained about them. It annoys me when we lose 9though not as much as it used to) and I enjoy it when we win. I think I'd probably prefer in order
1. A decent game with a Leeds win
2. A decent game
3. A Leeds win

However none of that has devalued either championship won. Like I said, I found 2011 (from fifth) very satisfying.

That said, I started watching Leeds regularly in the 1980s so these last two fifth place finishes have some perspective for me.

Sounds a bit risky to me. Planning to peak for one match in the season. So Leeds weren't at their peak in the Challenge Cup final then? That was just a warm up for the Playoffs?

Just on a side issue do you think Sir Kev is planning to peak for the GF or the World Cup? Hope he doesn't get it wrong. Too much peaking in one season could play havoc with your plans.

The golden boot winner and world's best player peaks when he wants.

Finally I think we agree!!! I remember watching Wigan in the second division and you certainly appreciate the good times!

Of course winning from fifth is satisfying. But I would argue that your previous wins were more deserved. When we won from first in 2010 I knew we deserved it, no arguments. I couldn't stomach a team winning it from eighth. It makes RL look foolish.

Enough about Cameron Smith, what about Sir Kev?

2010 Wigan won from 1st,but if not for Leeds horrendous injuries all season they would have walked SL .That is my honest opinion.Wigan were fortunate that year

No it makes the RFL, pampering to the Sky broadcast requirements and inventing more convoluted play-off rules and opportunities to televise more games for the sole rights fee, look foolish.

Agreed.

Completely.

And I suppose - "end of"!!!!

The only poeple who would look foolish would be the ones in the 7 other playoff teams who bottled when it really mattered.

Although I still don't like the system as it is.

Jeez grapes are sour in Leeds, Wigan best team in SL at present by a country mile

Since it's one game apiece this season - and the winning margin was the same each time - I think Wigan's grapes must be heavily fermented.

are you really that thick or are you just pretending?
after all of the reasoned debate posted prior to your arrival on the scene you then posted this




no 5hit sherlock!
we all couldn't agree with you more and wigan are without a doubt the best side in sl by a country mile at present,but sadly for that present accolade you don't pick up any trophies for being so dominant.

but then again being a giants fan i suppose you have grasped that concept by now

If you could be as specific as to peak for 80mins out of a whole year you would probably earn millions. But it doesnt quite work like that does it. Not being at the peak during the challenge cup final doesnt mean it is a warm up.

Sorry, just being facetious.

My point is that of course Leeds were trying their damndest in the Challenge Cup Final. I'm not too up on the latest Sports Science but training to peak at the end of the season to win the GF doesn't seem that difficult to work out. Surely every team tries to do that. I would argue that there are other factors that come into play here. And luck is one of them.

I just want one Leeds fan to admit that luck played a part as well as the play off system in your success of the past two seasons.

Luck tends to even out over the course of a league campaign but can have too big an effect in a cup competition. (Look at Wigan Athletic for heavens sake!!!)

Winning once from 5th may have an element of luck in it but to do it twice dispels that theory. 6 from 9 reinforces the premiss that luck has nothing to do with it at all.

It's like saying "Wigans 80's/90's winning steak sure was lucky wasn't it?"