How do you know ? You just do right ?

Nothing I say is going to change your opinion....I realise that.

Being an ex indoctrinated catholic many things have always puzzled me....perhaps you can enlighten me on just a few ?

When people die they're judged and sent to heaven or hell......right ? However, the rapture tells us that people will be judged from their graves.....thought they were already in heaven or hell ? I'm obviously missing something.
When babies die, do they stay as babies in heaven ? Or do they grow up ?
Are hindus, muslims, mormons, jehovah's witnesses etc etc (who were more often than not born into their religions/beliefs purely by an accident of birth) allowed into heaven too ?

Freedom of speech is a two way street - if someone expresses a certain view on an open forum then they should expect to have that view challenged.

Not [iphysically[/i maybe.

You do not believe in physical harm against others because you obviously [u[idon't[/i[/u want to believe that....what if you're wrong however and your god does actually want you to commit harm to others (as other do believe) ?

Incidentally, do you believe god kills sinners indiscriminately with tsunamis, floods, earthquakes, volcanoes etc ?? Is it beyond him to be more clinically selective with his superior being [isuperior[/i version of a 'smart' bomb ?

Good question.

1 Thessalonians tells us that we shall be reunited with those who are dead in Christ in the air. However, we should also remember that Jesus told the thief on the cross that they would be reunited in paradise "today".

I believe that Christians who die are in Heaven straight away -[i When we take our last breath on earth, we will take our first breath in heaven[/i 2 Corinthians 5:6-9

The scriptural account of the Rapture doesn't exclude this.



This is much less of an important question. When we go to Heaven we are in God's company. We do not have a physical body.



Absolutely not.

[iJesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me[/i John 14:6

He's not much of a forgiver this fellow is he?



So they get eternal damnation for being born in the wrong place at the wrong time? Even if, say, they died aged one or two years old and had never had chance to form fixed religious viewpoints of their own? Paying for the sins of their fathers I suppose

Good luck in your beliefs......but please do not pontificate that you're [i[unot[/u[/i advocating hurting others with those beliefs. Of course you are.

Can i ask how you came that conclusion? What was your thought process?

How did you get from 'i dont understand this part of the universe' to believing there is an omnipotent, omniscient being overseeing the universe with a strange obsession with who puts which penis where?

What I find sad is that your blinkered view of the world discriminates against people who were born homosexual much in the same way that you were born heterosexual, ie not as a matter of choice. To suggest that for them to 'avoid sin' they shouldnt engage in relationships as everyone else can, is frankly disgusting. Why choose to believe this 'law of the bible' and probably not others, I'm guessing that you don't follow the rest word for word carrying out the appropriate actions as youd probably be locked up and/or sectioned for doing so.

The way I see religion is that the positive messages of being a good person treating others well and the community spirit particularly that Methodists have, Is a good think to support those who need it. However the theory of greater beings etc is just a tool to deliver that communities focus much in the same way that I find other focuses when I feel a bit lost. Not altogether bad except when it gets to the stage of preaching and discrimination.

Fook me it's Dot Cotton! "Oooh, I say!"

Why also do religious people not speak in the same way the last quotation in that post is written?....what's that?..it's outdated?...oh, I see.

Ive applied some maths to this thorny issue and done a pie chart.

I preferred you dehumanised.....as just a name on a forum. Now I actually like, admire and respect you. B'stard

Forgive me. Why this contradiction ? If we have no physical body then why would we breathe in heaven ?

Presumably we are still the same [iperson[/i in heaven in whatever form....with our "memories" that define us. So again I ask what about babies that die on earth....? Are they given false memories and a created personality ???

Another thing that always puzzled me is how do you define 'paradise' ? Paradise is surely were you're not...being in one paradise all day every day would soon cease to be anything special.....to have a concept of enjoyment, happiness and fulfillment surely you also need the opposite otherwise again it surely becomes routine boredom ?
Do they have SL or better still NRL in heaven ? Video games ? Fifty female virgins (in non bodily form wouldn't be much fun....

and indeed were do [ithey[/i come from ?) for each male ?

Presumably eskimoes would need to adapt pretty quickly to a tropical paradise? they've never before conceived of.......or do they have a sectioned off heavenly polar region with copious seals and walruses to keep them happy ? ....but then animals don't go to heaven do they ? No safaris there then ? Think I'd miss the birdsong (and watching carnivores eating their prey alive.....hmmm nice bit of creation that

)

I have a question for the campaign...maybe kirkstaller can help me understand...

I'm happily married. I'm also an atheist. We got married in a civil ceremony a hotel. Am I redefining marriage?

I can't understand why a gay "marriage" can't be called just that yet my entirely non religious marriage can?

I'm in two minds. On one hand I reckon Kirkstaller is very sincere in his beliefs, but so were Pol Pot, Joe Stalin, and that nutter over in Zimbabwe. And on the other, who are we to so easily dismiss the beliefs of millions of people, who have believed in some form of Religion over the Millennia?

At a more simplistic level, as I've been happily married for 25 years, I simply can't see how allowing same sex marriages is any kind of threat. If a couple of Boy George types moved in next door, and coo-eed over the garden fence that they were married....I don't think my first reaction would be "We're doomed!" Nor would my second one be for me to rush out and invest in some lycra bicycling shorts.

Live and let live Kirkstaller. It's much better for the digestion.

He might not like this announcement then. Leeds are dedicating their Round 24 fixture against Widnes at Headingley to celebrating Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgender equality, with fans invited to design a shirt for the players to wear in the pre-match warm up.

Leeds Rhinos Chief Executive Gary Hetherington said: “As a sport, Rugby League has always prided its reputation as an inclusive sport for many years whether that is based on race, religion or sex. We are pleased to be working with the RFL in this game-wide initiative to tackle homophobia and look forward to our clash with Widnes and helping spread the message about sporting equality.”

Personally i think gay marriage is fine, if 2 people love each other and want to be together whatever their sexuality then let them. When you consider how poorly straight couples are treating marriage today why can't gay couples try do a better job, they've already had to overcome more obstacles just to be together in the first place than most straight couples will face in a life time of marriage.

Flanagan starts celebrations early: www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sp ... kills.html

Flanagan starts celebrations early: www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/sp ... kills.html

As with most occasions when this crops up it provides interesting debate, that no-one ever win or even budges.

My view is based on my own upbringing, and the values I was given by my parents. I was born into a religious family. I hold those beliefs, but I am not what you'd call a practising christian. I do however live by the mantra that everybody should be treated well and equally. My brother is very involved in his church, and it is a very modern and forward thinking church, that is nothing like what most people would consider church to be. He reecntly put up on Facebook that he thinks that there should be gay marriage. There are many reasons behind this all of which I agree with. Mostly Christianity is about love, and God loves every one of his people. Gay, straight, black, white, hindu, muslim. Where two people love each other I beleive that they should be able to have the same rights as anyone else who is in the same situation. What its labelled is a moot point in my book. If its called a marriage, I can't see what the problem with that is.

I would say that my only problem with this being introduced by the government is that I do not think there is a huge call for it. I am close with our Women's rugby team, and there are a lot of lesbians in that group. Many are in civil partnerships, and are referred to as being married. If the people who it directly affects aren't that bothered about it, is this something that is vital to be pushed through in these fiscal times? Will this be this government's Fox Hunting bill?

For me, relion of most forms is primarily about peace and love. People who deviate from these primary themes tend to give religion a bad name.

I asked Kirkstaller this on his thread over in the Sinbin pointing out that it says in the bible Love Thy Neighbour. This is what he said:


[i[uI come up against this argument a lot. Do you think God would disagree with Christians saying theft or murder is wrong? No, he wouldn't. Sin is sin. Loving thy neighbour is doing as you would be done. I would hope my fellow brothers would strive to correct me if I were sinning.[/u[/i


Some people just take Bibical quotes and twist them to suit there own purpose/agenda/argument etc instead of taking it how it is written.

Edited for accuracy



All religious people align themselves with whatever interpretation makes them (as individuals) feel most comfortable....there are plenty of options to choose from.

"God" might in fact want his followers to brutally kill on his behalf, but most westerners at least are uncomfortable with that, so ignore the less savoury (to them as individuals) elements of any scripture. There is always somebody within a church/mosque/temple somewhere who can give them that reassurance that they are right.

Those that do wish to interpet their scriptures differently to the sensitive majority shaped by progressive modern society are dismissed as extremists. It wasn't that long ago however that most in this country would have gone along with the majority accepted notion (Kirkstaller would have been the heretic) of burning witches, stoning adulterers and killing homosexuals: indeed, of course, it still goes on in other parts of the world

You would think that if a god did exist he would make his "word" a darn sight less complicated and open to so many variable interpretations. He must be having a right laugh looking down at all those arguing with each other as to which is the one true truth and path to this heavenly reward .......you could say he's a bit of a devil really

What, like taking "love thy neighbour" in isolation and ignoring the rest of the Bible to suit your agenda?

Yes, I quite happy ignore the bible I don't need a book to tell me how to live or to preach fear to me. Love Thy Neighbour imo means love everyone around you, don't be so selective in who you love.

No hypocrasy here.


Edit: I see you have now removed your last comment. I'm confused, are you still saying I'm a hypocrite?

I have a question lets say a man gets married to a woman said woman dies a few years later.A woman gets married to a man the man then dies a few years later.The man and woman still alive meet fall in love get married what happens then when they all end up in heaven.

The sooner man kind wakes up and realises there is no god no after life and when your dead your dead nothing after the world will be a better place.Live and let live whats a bit of paper it dont make you a bad person no matter what you are born.Maybe religeon had a place when mankind had no initial rules and helped shape whats right from wrong but its rather outdated today science has proven that i would say.If a gay couple moved next door it wouldnt bother me providing they left me and my family alone I would leave them alone lifes to short to get hung up about two men or women living together.Could it be the OP is affraid he might be converted to the other side in some way ?.Lighten up live in the modern world its not a bed of roses but you will get through it.

Yes. You used a quote from the bible in isolation and then went into a tirade about people who use quotes from the bible in isolation.

I am also struggling to work out where the people who object to same sex marriage also object to same sex love. The OP made no such comment or objection.

And I'll edit my posts how I want to. Maybe if you thought about what you typed you might want to do the same.

I really have no idea what you're talking about. I quoted a well known phrase that also happens to be in the bible, it also happens to be the name of a 1970's sitcom too. I went out once with my neighbour, so I really did Love Thy Neighbour. Does that mean I'm quoting in isolation??

I don't object to same sex marriage or same sex love. The OP has objected to both so I don't know what you are talking about.

You have every right to edit you posts, I was not having a pop, just wondered why you edited it out because thats the quote I was answering to you.

You need to read the posts on this topic in SinBin and where I lifted the quote from in full context might become more apparent to you.