Not confirmed, but Webb is going.

Quote ="Tyke's/Rhinos No. 1 Fan"Next year's 17: Scruton'" Just signed a new deal at the Bulls www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/s ... ord_Bulls/

Quote ="Tyke's/Rhinos No. 1 Fan"Next year's 17: Scruton'" Just signed a new deal at the Bulls www.thetelegraphandargus.co.uk/s ... ord_Bulls/

Well id only bring in two from outside, the rest would be replaced from within. Watkins, Pitts, Ambler, Clarkson, Hardaker, BjB are at a stage when they need to be stepping up to being first team players, and I would say they all deserve the opportunity to do so. Bringing in new players is going to mean chances for these players are restricted and they will struggle to reach their potential.

There is nothing wrong with our half-back three. Imo Mcguire is still the best stand off in the competition, Sinfield is still by far, the most creative loose forward in the league and if not the best certainly among the best leaders in the game and Burrow is still among the better scrum halves in the league.

What we arent doing is setting a platform for them to control the game.

We must agree to differ - Burrow is not one of the best scrum halves in the league and having 3 out of every 6 plays going through Sinfield has been really exposed against the better sides. Sinfield is the most creative loose forward in the league because he is the only LF in the league who plays as a half back. You need to compare him to other playmakers in the league e.g. Briers, Brough, Leulaui. As for McGuire he was the best stand off in the competition last year - nobody knows how he will recover after the injury.

The attack is too slow and needs a re-think including the introduction of a serious kicking option something none of the 3 half backs have.

Is suspect some big names will go this season - Webb, Ali, Buderus...But I don't have much confidence on Leeds signing some real talent. I also expect McDermott to be at the helm next season with his squad changes which will be his last chance to deliver - which I suspect will end in failure.

Briers has spent a career flattering to decieve, to say Brough has imploded to the stage of being a liability with 18months of every club he has played at is being kind to him. Whilst Brough and Briers were busy with careers going nowhere Rob Burrow and Kevin Sinfield were winning titles. Lets not forget the 8-10 years Rob Burrow and Kevin Sinfield were fulfilled potential for less than a full season of Briers and Brough doing anything.

The attack looks slow because the pack arent earning them the space behind a better pack, Sinfield and Mcguire and Burrow are capable of ripping any team in this league apart. They have done so for the last 7 years.

Far too many changes.

Agree - far too many changes.

I doubt that we'll win anything next season regardless of how many changes we make. The issue for me is whether GH is going to go back to what worked well in the past - trust in the young players to develop and bring in one or two better older players, with a view to 2013. I don't think its possible to turn round an entire playing squad in a year.

BTW, that squad against Warrington (who looked good in part because Leeds were awful IMO) could and should do far better, regardless of a few odd choices by McDermott. That says to me that the coach is at least part of the problem. The results against Huddersfield and Warrington have shown Leeds to be way off the pace this year - those scorelines at home ought to be unacceptable. I've seen far worse Leeds teams give at least a decent account of themselves against on paper better opposition.

Whilst I agree that some stagnation occurred in the last year or so, I find it laughable that so many 'seers' amongst us apparently would either have thrown half the squad out in 2009 (thus missing out on the third title in a row) or immediately following winning the title have gone in for a major refit of the squad with no evidence of a decline - remember a LOT of people believed the squad last year to have been stronger than 2009).

GH needs to take some responsibility for poor signings - bringing in the likes of Cross and Hauraki (no doubt in a holding role until Ambler/Amor etc were ready) were not the signings of a club seeking to win more honours this season. Hauraki I can accept as a gamble but given that he's patently not working out, we should be looking to offload him.

Basically we have underperforming players and a coach that sadly seems way out of his depth. The first step is to look for a new coach for next season. That may appear making McDermott the scapegoat, but I've seen the impact of quality coaches on teams, and vice versa. I don't think I want to see what McDermott can do next year.

For me it is time for a total rebuild, I can understand poor performances if I thought we were building towards something as in 2002 & 03. What no club with aspirations of honours can do is stagnate/go backwards - this is what has happened here. You only have to look <10 miles east to see what that does to a once top club.

The club needs a cultural change - too many players are in a comfort zone and have played together for too long. No coach will be able to significantly improve these players as they reach the end of their careers. The likes of JJB, Bailey, Sinfield, Burrow, Kirke, Peacock, Webb, Senior, Kylie, Ali are only going to go one way in terms of performance. Younger, quicker and stronger players in other teams are already exposing their age.

If as you suggest you keep the nucleus of this side you are accepting that a slide to mid-table mediocrity is inevitable as the style and speed of play will get even slower.

The concern for me is how easily the top sides have beat us at home - Huddersfield, Warrington, Saints - all of whom were able to put big points on Leeds at home. The performances against Huddersfield and Warrington were frankly embarrassing.

We are not talking about what happened 8/10 years ago - we are talking about now. Just because they were great players doesn't mean sides are going stand by and admire - the top sides know Leeds are vulnerable and have dismantled them accordingly.

Your view is get a prop and it will all be OK - I disagree I think more radical surgery is required and that means a change in the way we attack and defend. You will not do that with the existing personnel - they are set in their ways - which was OK three years ago but the game has moved on.

I am sure Briers was thinking I am flattering to deceive at Wembley when Sinfield/Burrow/McGuire were filling there potential. I am sure he was thinking the same thing on Friday.

As for Brough what happened previously has no bearing on now - he is in a different world to any of our playmakers - sometimes you have to move on, something the CEO at Leeds finds very difficult.

Disagree with the references to wholesale replacements being required (and actually just as real an issue, whether they are possible). I'm not arguing about one or two (Senior really has to be told that's enough IMO). But Peacock on the list is a bit unfair - he's barely come back from injury and I'd wait a few more games to start to judge him yet. Burrow isn't physically declining - he's still quicker than most halfbacks in the world - its more a question of playing behind a beaten pack with no structure. Sinfield's game has never been the most physical, and if there was any player who's game should show a relatively slow decline it would be his.

Wholesale changes very rarely work and are in any event virtually impossible in the salary cap era. The best answer is probably a few changes plus a new coach. A good coach can as good as add years to a player's career, and completely revamp the way they play.

I do agree entirely that everybody at the club ought to view performances and results like those vs Hudds, Sts and Warrington to be completely unacceptable. I can understand the odd 'off day' when we get beaten by a supposedly inferior team, or get a beating away from home when we just aren't up for it. There should be no excuses at home with a side lacking only a couple of players though.

I seem to recall Graham Murray turning what was basically a side full of average players with a couple of stars into a very hard to beat outfit. That's what a decent coach can do. Its also why I despair about the 'DP was actually rather good' nonsense on here. No, he wasn't. Tony Smith was.

In fact if you look back at Tony Smith's so-called 'disaster' season of 2006, the one thing we had was a massive change in personnel. We lost the likes of Barrie Mc, Calderwood, Dunemann, McKenna and Ward that year, and brought in Donald, Toopi, Millard, O'Neill, Thackray, Kirke and Peacock. Not a great success rate. It also might say something about cheap and cheerful overseas signings as well....

Isn't that a contradiction. What GH did in the past that worked is make a load of changes, planned changes. In order to get the youth in we need to get out the dead wood, and if that is a lot so be it, and it should be a lot.





This very post I find laughable Brisbane, sorry. Nobody on this board posted saying that players should have been thrown out in 2009, when we were the top side.

I myself, and I know Sal said pretty much the same at the time, when that season had =#FF0000finished that plans should be in place for the end of 2010 to make many changes. I personally continued to say it all last year and got some stick, even though I also thought that we would have still won the championship in 2010. It was absolutely clear that players were reaching their end games, and whilst I excuse posters on here for not seeing it, GH can not be excused.

I remember clearly the signings of the magnificent 7 last season, and the lone voices on here (me included) calling it ridiculous, and the many posters praising it. What a mistake that was.




This isn' restricted to this year though is it, or this club? He let the academy go massively backwards for 3 years, and persisted with a coach there who was not performing. The recruitment in the academy was not what it should have been for our standing and our service area.

Then look at what he has done to the Tykes (Carnegie). The running of that has been a laughing stock over the last 12 months. His (and yes it was his) recruitment for them was a joke, and the handling of the contracts and players since.

Perhaps, just perhaps, GH is trying to do far too much and the control freak postition is becoming a negative rather than a positive. There is no doubt he has to hold the accolade of responsibility for bringing the success, but it also has to come back to him now it's going rapidly backwards.

The term used by Brian McDermott was that he was 'Rested'.

Wouldn't be unhappy if the following were let go:
Brent Webb, Keith Senior, Kylie Leuluai, Ali Lauitiiti, Ryan Bailey & Ian Kirke.
At first glance i'd like to see Ray Cashmere in for Kylie Leuluai.

according to Dave 'nosey' Parker today Webb is staying 1 more year and Senior going to Leeds Carnegie?

Cannot see the Webb rumour being true given the Widnes rumours and the fact we have BJB/Hardaker/Smith to play there

I read that as well but apparantly he just talks rubbish and gets his rummors from us on here talking rubbish!

What is happening now is transient. There is nothing to say that if we go out and sign Brough and let Burrow go that this time next year we arent complaining about losing a well liked and respected member of the squad who had earned plenty of success and international recognition and was part of a GF winning squad 2years ago and replaced him with a known troublemaker who lacks discipline and has spent most of his career having his class swamped by an ocean of less than average displays.
Not quite, i think that a better pack and better systems will create more space and allow Mcguire/Sinfield and Burrow to again show what they have shown more than any other players for the past 7 years.
Im sure he was flattering to deceive whilst Eddie was running his Briers for Britain campaign whilst Burrow was man of the series against the Kiwis. Im sure Briers was flattering to deceive when Sinfield/Mcguire and Burrow have won 4 grand finals and appeared in 5 of the last 7 grand finals whilst Briers has a proud record of winning 1 whole play-off game, 5 years ago.
No he isnt, he is having a good season, so what, Burrow has had good seasons, Mcguire was comfortably better last season,

I was thinking about this over the weekend. Its obvious we need a bit of a clear out.

Now St Helens, have managed to stay pretty much in the top 2 for the last 10 years or so, and have managed transitions between squads well. However, 1 GF win since 2002 is not a brilliant record for a team that hasn't really had a dip as such.

So the question is:

Do we prefer to accept that a year or two transition happy that we have seen probably the greatest ever SL team in action, or yearn for more consistency even if it is at the expense of actual championship success.

This is a salary capped sport, and no-one will have a prolonged period of success. We are also repaying the loyalty the players have shown us. Again, not great short term, but I think in the long term it will be well recognised that Leeds is a club which can be sucessful and look after its players

You are still harking on about what happened 2/3 years ago not what is happening now - I agree this squad has won GF's but again that is in the past - Burrow has had good seasons but that is in the past. McGuire was the best half back in the league in 2010 but that is not now.

What Briers did 3/4 years ago is as relevant now as what Sinfield/McGuire/Burrow did in 2009. What is relevant is what happened on Friday, what happened at Warrington earlier in the season and what happened in the 2010 CC final.

I am not saying we should sign Brough for one minute - all I am saying is right now he and Briers are the best half backs in SL - what both have is a quality kicking game - something Leeds do not have.

It is about evolution not stagnation.

because the point I am making is form is transient. If what Mcguire/Sinfield and Burrow proved over the last 7/8/9 years is irrelevant then so is half a season of good form from Brough and Briers.

There is no reason for us to assume that two players whose form and commitment has been inconsistent at best will now forever be at the top of their form and fully committed whilst three players whose form and commitment has for a long time been beyond question have suddenly and irrevocably become rubbish.

What history has told us is that in the future, Burrow, Sinfield and Mcguire are likely to regain form and hit their straps whereas Briers and Brough are currently playing above the levels they have hit throughout their careers and if anything are likely to regress.

Why is 2010 relevant but not 2009? either we are basing our predictions for the future on what has happened in the past or we arent. You seem to want base your view on what has happened in the past but only on a very small window of time. Which I think is preventing you seeing the bigger picture.

Briers and Brough arent evolution, they are 32 and 28 respectively. They both do have a quality kicking game, Sinfield has a quality kicking game and Mcguire has a quality short kicking game. Im not sure what you are wanting is evolution, more simply change for the sake of change.

Where are you going to these replacements from.For mine we need to replace Senior,Ali and Kirke.Unfortunatly we may be stuck with Cross and Hauraki both contracted for next season.

Players leaving (or should be leaving) will, IMO, include:
Webb - BJB
Senior - Watkins
Leuluai - Ambler
Cross - New Signing
Burgess - New Signing, but would prefer him to stay
Hauraki - Clarkson
Lauitiiti - New Signing
Kirke - New Signing

So that's 8 players leaving, and at least 3 new signings, maybe 4. Lots of work to do for GH...

Cross contracted for next season,Hauraki contracted for a further two seasons so releasing them is going to be difficult.Is Ambler good enough I'm not so sure.

IMO I'm not sure we know whether Ambler is good enough...... Yet.... But he might be. Very much 'a work in progress' for me.

At the moment he is playing in a very poor team and whilst reports are he's doing ok I don't see him/read about him pulling up trees.

I liken the arguments about Ambler and Amor being the answer to our pack problems to other sports whereby players out of a team are always bigged up to be the answer and held in higher esteem etc to what maybe their performances have deserved?

I think in sport in general it's always the players in the team that get the critism and people think/say bring player 'X' in because he is great and scoring lots of runs/goals/tries in the reserves/county team etc but then when they get the chance sometimes those That had been calling for their inclusion soon come to the conclusion they are doing no better than the person they wanted acing in their place.

Look at Tom Bush. Last season when he got brought in against Wigan away and dud well, many were saying what a star in the making he was and how impressed they were and how he was another 'young gun' coming from our long production line......look at where he is now.

Time will tell whether Ambler and/or Amor are any better than the pack options we currently have. Personally I don't think they are.... AT THE MOMENT ( and the club must agree as otherwise they wouldn't be where they are now) BUT in a year or two they may prove to be better than what we currently have?

One way or another we will soon get the chance to find out if the likes of Kirke and Bailey are released on top of the likely departure of Burgess to the NRL at the end of thus season and possible retirements of JP and Kylie over the next season.

As long as we don't expect anyone to pay us a fee should be able to offload both of them. We should really be paying the other teams to take em!