I'm surprised and delighted (note sarcasm) to note that the knives are out fro a few scapegoats already. I can live with the knives looking for Buderus (I don't agree, but he has yet to do much to command loyalty) but that Burrow and Diskin are suddenly not good enough I find odd in the extreme.

Is it just possible that the team hasn't functioned well enough as a unit this year, and that this might be rectifiable without binning half of the squad?

Just a thought.

And I'm surprised and delighted that we have yet another fookwit thread regarding the merits of Diskin and Buderus!

Could I make a suggestion to the two main protagonists? Howzabout you express your man love for either hooker in a series of PM's,.... witter on about GF rings to your heart's content....become orgasmic over State of Origin, and leave the rest of us to ponder on the squad's lineup for next season.

Thanking you in anticipation.

As Andy G alluded to earlier, there are rumours from reliable sources to suggest that the senior players want McLennan out and that the club management sympathise with their position. I think McDermott was supposed to be the band aid but, it would seem he is too little, too late.

I had believed and hoped that it was the usual bs but, I've now heard it from two people who are closely linked to the club. Quite frankly, if it is true, it is very disappointing.

I too have heard the same rumours but if Mclennan remains with Mcdermott as his assistant Mclennan will be the boss, rightly or wrongly. If Mclennan is undermined in that position things could get even worse!

So far the thread had been a sensible and frank exchange of opinions. Then you posted this.

The attacks on Burrow are the ones that make me laugh the most. I'd like to bet that they are being posted by the same muppets who who were on here earlier in the year proclaiming McGuire to have limited creative ability and to be merely a good support player.

For those who are claiming that Buderus has a more positive impact on the team than Diskin, consider the fact that when he is on the field at the start of the game, all the players are fresh, fit and raring to go, whilst when Diskin comes on between 20 and 30 minutes later, they are starting to fade and in need of a break. If the hookers were to play the other way around, then you would have seen threads on here stating how we look strong and in control for the first quarter and then Buderus comes on and we lift again.

To summarise, the main point I have been trying to make is that Buderus, whilst being our main threat at hooker (for a number of reasons, including the above) simply hasn't lived up to the reputation that he came with.

Totally agree with all of that, except to say that perhaps due to injury, he hasn't really had the chance to get a consistant run of form going. I think he will come good, as will the team, given the right circumstances.

Not so sure what your argument is here beacuse surely it is harder to control the game for the first 20 minutes than it is when defenses are tired. But I'm not going to get into it.




This is the bit I find as the poor argument. I said it before, and I'll say it again, what reputation fans want to put on players is there own business, some live in cloud cuckoo land (see saints fans with every player they ever have). But for those more intune with the game, Buderus has been everything expected of him. A first class hooker who does the job he is paid to do, just as simple as that.

I am sure Matt King is well below the reputation he came with, but would Warrington fans rather have had him or Paul Johnson. Or Kearney at Bradford, would Bulls fans had rather had Michael Platt at fullback.

Reputations are irrelevant, it's doing their job on the pitch that matters. And any argument that says we spent money on a luxury we did not need personally I think is a justified and fair point, but any argument saying he's not delivered is just plain wrong.

For clarity Buderus has delivered better overall performance than Diskin, but has not performed as well as you would expect of a former NSW and Australia captain, who until the emergence of Cameron Smith, was regarded as probably the best Australin hooker of the modern era.

If you believe that reputation plays no part in expectations of what you can expect, would you like to tell us all how a player justifies his salary at contract negotiations?

The point is relative to his stature and reputation, Buderus has not delivered. If he had, we would be able to point to at least half a dozen games where he has put in a world class performance. Although I feel that he has demostrated his undoubted skills, he has not put in a full performance that is commensurate with the money we are paying him and the talent he has.
I'd expect average Joe to give us effort but, he is not on avergae Joe money.
Now I feel there are mitigating circumstances and that it is not through lack of effort. However, you can't change the simple facts.

In your opinion. In mine he's delivered everything I expected and been a joy to watch, which is what I put above.



Sure, ability would be the key indicator in contract negotiations. I am sure the club looked at his ability and thought I am having that. I could say I am the best around, but it would not get me a big salary off Leeds Rugby. What his reputation was would have had nothing to do with contract negotiations, that would just be plain silly for any club to work on that principal alone. Although to be fair to you and although I don't think it is the point you are making, I am sure the fact that his reputation should have put bums on seats may well have played a part in the clubs decision to pick him specifically.

The facts are completely pugwash though.

I bet you couldn't count on one hand throughout more than a century of the game a time where an hooker spending only two seperate 20 minutes of the game has been classed as a "world class performance". It just won't happen mate, which is why I said some peoples view on reputation are just living in cloud cuckoo land.

Forget the 2 hooker thing and give him a run playing 70 minutes each week and you would see the top class performances you are craving. But even then it would be irrelevant, because one man can't stand out as "world class" in a poorly playing side, that is something anybody needs to take into account when looking at individuals.

Do you know how much Leeds are paying him? or are just like most on here believing the likes of Danny and Gareth who think Buderus is earning more than Wayne Rooney?

For me he has been brilliant to watch - his defence is immense as is technique and game awareness. You may be disappointed but there isn't a 9 in SL that I would rather have in the blue and gold and that includes Cunningham.

In which case, I'm happy for you that you are easily pleased. I on the other hand would like some world class performances from my "world class players".

With regard to ability being the deciding factor in contract negotiations, for younger or lower paid players I would agree that this is the case, however for someone who is coming to the end of his career then the years of reputation he has built up, leading to a more commercially attractive proposition in terms of maximising revenues, reputation is rightly so a big part of the discussions. Further, when you consider that a major part of the contract and salary structure at Leeds is your representative status (which is reputation) then it's very clear to me that Buderus reputation will have been a huge part of the contract negotiations and his salary expectations.

That's absolutely fine bats, had you shown even the slightest degree of consistency with that viewpoint.

I haven't seen any posts displaying your frustrations for not delivering for the likes of Ali, Senior, JJB, Delaney, Webb, Burrow, all of these players of which Buderus has had a far better season than.

Like I said earlier, any argument for been a luxury we did not need I think is a fair enough point to lead with, but any argument of not giving quality performance is just plain wrong.

Well for a start off, the you've ruled out circa ninety years up to the current interchange system. However, how about Roby against us earlier this year and in the play offs two years ago, or perhaps fat Kieron on Friday night? All I want to see is two twenty minutes of quality commensurate with the man's ability.

My last contribution to this perpetual argument is, as I and others have intimated, do you NOT think the "man of the match" performance you ( rightly ) desire is MUCH more likely if the man is actually allowed to play the full match..... on a regular basis ?

Instead we have the craven sychophantic constant decision to appease/accomodate both players from coaching staff and posters on here ....at seemingly any detrimental cost to the team. Diskin simply must be included. Why ??

Fair enough if Buderus fails then give the full match status back to Diskin. Somehow though I don't think he will fail under those circumstances.

All of it has been bad management. Buderus was signed. Not his fault nor Diskin's. But he was signed ....and he has been wasted. The whole thing is a shambles

I have reserved judgement on Buderus until the end of the season, whilst praising some of the good things he has done throughout the season as relevant.

I have consistently given a critique of his performances to the point at which my critique was given, which now is a season long one. I guess we will just have to agree to disagree, because as much as you don't want to see any failure to live up to his undoubted potential, I cannot accept that he has performed to the levels that I expected of him.

As a final comment on Buderus, through handling errors and penalties he has given very valuable territory and momentum to our opposition in both of our biggest games of the year. Not something I would expect of someone of his ability or reputation.

With regard to the other players you mentioned, they don't come with the reputation of Buderus so I'm not as disappointed with their seasons, although they haven't hit the straps of previous years.

so of the people who've heard rumours of departures are you pleased the players think they are bigger than the club, probably the job for life gives them that impression

amongst the fog gotcha was consistent in calling for rebuilding this year not next

only danny has improved in the backs with smith looking like doing so

the 2 best forwards are well into their thirties and the best of the back row were the departing eastwood and newcomer clarkson

ambler has shown promise and could have more game time

the previous 3 years were fantastic but burnout was happening and unfortunately saints have coped better than us though wellens , gardner and meli are below par from their seniors at times

If the rumours are true, I am disappointed in the players and the club, particularly if matters are as bad as I have been lead to believe. However, I doubt very much that things are that bad, as the significance of these spats tend to be vastly exaggerated.
Going back on topic, I don't feel that Diskin has had a good season and I will freely admit to wishing Buderus was on the field on more than one occasion over the last two to three months. However, that in no way confirms that Buderus has, by his supposed standards, had a vastly superior season. In actual fact, given that Buderus was alleged to be the finest hooker in the world, then I have would have to say I have been slightly underwhelmed.
In mitigation for Buderus, I would point to my earlier post.

Bluey comes over as a nice sort of a bloke that you would be happy to have as a favorite uncle. However I have to say I don't like his playing style and IMO the team has gone backwards under his leadership. Yes I know we have back to back GF but I think that was down to the players and not the coach. So let him go I say.

This could rumble on forever but i guess until one or the other plays a consistent string of games playing 65-70 minutes or more we will never know.

I personally believe Buderus' form whilst Diskin was injured was very good, but even then he was substituted.

To go back step Batley posted that his defefnce could not be good as he gave away penalties. Well i disagree, i am referrring to the actual act of defending. his line speed is immense he is always the first one out of the line at the PTB as all good Australians are. When he gets to the player his impact is stronger (for a smaller guy), he tackles around the legs, he rarely misses.

I watched him off the ball on Saturday and his workrate was unbelieveable, i also watched Diskin off the ball and he was ambling around in a daze.

The OP stated the Leeds performance went down hill after the substitution. it did.

That may be true and I have more than a doubt about the bloke. However, the day the players start calling the shots in any club, is usually the day it all strarts going to rat .

Have Quins not finished lower in each subsequent season of his tenure?