I don't know what Wigan paid Calderwood but the one thing I am certain of is that whatever it was they didn't get value for money.

How do you form an opinion on something you know nothing about?

Without knowing any of the details of any of the contracts Leeds players are offered how do you know they are fair.

Care to enlighten us or is it another round of guessing and factless speculation like we had before he happily signed his new deal.

So do you doubt the fairness of these deals?
Do you honestly think that we'd of kept such a quality squad over the years on the back of any unfairness in their contracts or the pay structure?
I'd say the fact of who we've retained/signed over the years indicates perfectly that the system is fair and works.

I would say that it is fair to say that had we not been winning things, these players would have been long gone.

Infact Sinfield confirmed that we have struggled to keep hold of our players, who have put career achievements ahead of money, which they could have got more of elsewhere.

The fact that they could have earned more elsewhere would actually suggest they might not be on fair contracts, rather than suggesting they are fair. We should just be grateful the players chose to put trophies first.

He did indeed comment on the squad putting success first before that extra"few quid" but i seriously doubt they are the worst paid group in the league either.
I don't think it's surprising that with the cap in place that certain players could earn more elsewhere afterall Bradford offered Ellis more than we did but he came here.
I think it's safe to assume that the structure and policies of the club and CEO are as fair and as rewarding as they can be given the restrictions and i'd be happy for more exemptions for homegrown lads on the cap to be brought into practice.

You see, that's exactly what tvoc was talking about with guessing.

Ellis was not offered more by Bradford to go there instead at all. He was offered more by Wakefield to stay there.

The only reason Ellis nearly turned his back on the Leeds deal was because Hetherington went back on the verbal agreeement, regarding the length of the contact and a couple of small issues. Both of which were as per Ellis's agreement at Bradford, and deal offered to Wakefield which they would have preferred.

Are you guessing or is this fact? If fact can you substantiate it?

I seem to recall it being reported that Ellis was offered a more lucrative deal from the Bulls, but that is just my recollection.

That was how i thought it went and it only fell on it's @ss because the bulls players offered to Wakey gave it a big fook you.
I know the Leeds offer didn't increase as per TS instruction.
Whatever the detail i personally think the wage structure GH has implimented at Leeds works just fine and the fact that we have the quality squad we do also indicatse to me that it's as fair as it can be and that the squad are happy to play for their contracts they signed.

Considering I was the one that told everyone on these boards that Ellis had agreed a verbal agreement in the January before the end of December that he signed and the length of contract he was signing, and the exact deal Leeds had agreed with Wakefield, and followed it up by stating he was still coming to Leeds on the very day the media were saying he had signed for Bradford, I will state it as fact.

I have been through this previously and proven myself previously on this one.

He was not offered a more lucrative deal from Bradford, but he was from Wakefield.

Quote ="Gotcha"Considering I was the one that told everyone on these boards that Ellis had agreed a verbal agreement in the January before the end of December that he signed and the length of contract he was signing, and the exact deal Leeds had agreed with Wakefield, and followed it up by stating he was still coming to Leeds on the very day the media were saying he had signed for Bradford, I will state it as fact. I have been through this previously and proven myself previously on this one. He was not offered a more lucrative deal from Bradford, but he was from Wakefield.'" I wasn't around these parts then so i can't be expected to remember such post Am i correct in saying that he signed for the same money originally offered? www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/l ... .912323.jp

Quote ="Gotcha"Considering I was the one that told everyone on these boards that Ellis had agreed a verbal agreement in the January before the end of December that he signed and the length of contract he was signing, and the exact deal Leeds had agreed with Wakefield, and followed it up by stating he was still coming to Leeds on the very day the media were saying he had signed for Bradford, I will state it as fact. I have been through this previously and proven myself previously on this one. He was not offered a more lucrative deal from Bradford, but he was from Wakefield.'" I wasn't around these parts then so i can't be expected to remember such post Am i correct in saying that he signed for the same money originally offered? www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/l ... .912323.jp

And just because players could potentially earn more elsewhere doesnt mean that the wages paid at Leeds aren't fair. Other clubs may be willing to pay higher than market value to secure the services of a player.
From the outside, what can be said of Leeds is that whatever structure is in place is working in ensuring we have a balanced squad with quality spread across the park, rather than 1 or 2 superstars and then the rest of the team gash.
Players have left, who at the time I have wished would have stayed, players have come in that I have sometimes doubted would add anything, however, over the last few years I have seen the best rugby played in my 25 years of watching Leeds. So Mr Hetherington and co are doing it right, no matter who thinks it is fair/not fair.

Nobody I work with knows what I'm paid, my Wife and the the three guys that signed off on my salary are the only people who know - bar the Revenue (although they don't seem to know either accurately judgeing by the number of times I have to corect my tax code). Nobody on an internet message board knows what I'm paid either.

I think there is a lot of guessing going on here, it's like watching a re-run of Play Your Cards Right.

Quote ="rhinoms"I wasn't around these parts then so i can't be expected to remember such post Am i correct in saying that he signed for the same money originally offered? www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/l ... .912323.jp'" The agreement nearly breaking down was never about money, it was the length of the contract and a couple of clauses. Hetherington went back on the deal he verbally agreed long long before Ellis was allowed to put pen to paper. That is why Ellis nearly went to the Bulls, especially as Wakey were pushing him in that direction as it was a better deal for them.

Quote ="rhinoms"I wasn't around these parts then so i can't be expected to remember such post Am i correct in saying that he signed for the same money originally offered? www.yorkshireeveningpost.co.uk/l ... .912323.jp'" The agreement nearly breaking down was never about money, it was the length of the contract and a couple of clauses. Hetherington went back on the deal he verbally agreed long long before Ellis was allowed to put pen to paper. That is why Ellis nearly went to the Bulls, especially as Wakey were pushing him in that direction as it was a better deal for them.

Nicely retrieved. Can I look forward to you backing up this comment in a similar fashion?

You showed it didn't you?
The "i know what i'm worth" paragraph and my ability etc etc.
Quite clear imo ="pay me what i think i'm worth or i'm off" and he did!
I've already said in reply to dannys post about him been offered apparently a £25k a yr take it or leave it deal i think that's maybe a little low but i still stand by the opinion that the club offered him what THEY thought he was worth to them and i'm happy with that.
An excellent ££ move to Wigan engineered by Howes and his client good luck to him but we hardly struggled without him.

Leeds replaced Calderwood (2005) with Donald (2006), both played under the same coach (Smith), with the same right centre partner (Walker) and the same right sided half-back (McGuire).

Calderwood played one fewer game than Donald but to keep it simple we'll let that stand, although obviously with the extra game Donald had an extra 4% of gametime to increase his tallies.

Donald scored =#FF000010 fewer tries (=#FF0000-59%)
Donald had =#FF00009 fewer try assists (=#FF0000-900%)
Donald made =#FF0000435 fewer metres (=#FF0000-21%)
Donald made =#FF000013 fewer carries (=#FF0000-5%)
Donald made =#FF000040 fewer tackles (=#FF0000-35%)
Donald made =#FF00006 fewer offloads (=#FF0000-86%)
Calderwood made 9 fewer dummy half runs (-12%)
Donald made =#FF000033 fewer tackle busts (=#FF0000-165%)
Donald made =#FF000015 fewer marker tackles (=#FF0000-136%)
Donald made =#FF000017 fewer clean breaks (=#FF0000-131%)
Donald missed =#FF000010 extra tackles (=#FF0000-45%)
Donald made 6 fewer errors (-43%)
Donald conceded =#FF00002 extra penalties (=#FF0000-40%)

I've left off the kicking stats although all were in Calderwood's favour.

2006 was arguably Leeds' poorest of the last seven seasons.

do these stats mean that calders was a better player than scotty for the rhinos?
in your opinion tvoc,and as an expert of stats,do you believe that stats like these can be used to prove which player was better than which?

You mean this one:

Rhinos exit for try star Calders - YEP - 15th June 2005

[iCalderwood explained: “Being a Leeds lad, I have been very proud of playing for my hometown club, especially experiencing Grand Final and World Club Championship success. But I believe in my ability and value as a player. It has been a major decision to turn down the offer, especially when I have enjoyed being part of a new era of success for the club and, particularly, the fans. Whatever the future holds from 2006 onwards, I can promise the Rhinos supporters that I will continue to give 110 per cent on and off the field for the rest of this season as we chase Challenge Cup and Grand Final honours.”[/i

The one where Calderwood spoke to the press =#FF0000after the contract negotiations had been terminated by the club. The one where he is explaining to the Leeds fans how proud he is to play for the club and how he would continue to give 110% for the remainder of the season.

The one where you decided to say 'fook him' (on the pretext that Calderwood was trying to negotiate through the press - which he wasn't anyway)

no answer to Sam Buca on Twitter from Luke.

I'd ignore him too.

The stats shown there compare the Leeds right wing's contribution in successive seasons. Their relevance broadly depends on whether they appear to support your opinion or not. It's always interesting to view how posters react.

The same ones who claim that stats don't matter are usually the first to seize upon those that appear to support their viewpoint.



Stats (it seems to me and I'm no expert by the way) prove nothing of themselves.

My personal opinion re: the Calderwood / Donald comparison is that Leeds lost more than they gained. Although it can't be ignored that for whatever reason the Calderwood that left Leeds has not exactly reappeared elsewhere either.

Lee Crooks also springs to mind here, post his Hull career.

I am sorry Gotcha but I don't recall that. Do you have any links? Not saying you didn't but if you're going to be so vehement that it is a fact I think we need more to substantiate it.

He asked for a deal the club didn't think he was worth.
I have since admitted (going by Dannys post)that if the 25k offer was true it was a little low BUT i still maintain the club offered what they thought he was worth and i can live with that.
It's interesting that you only compare Donalds 1st season why don't you use the whole time he's been here when he's had the chance to play in "better Leeds teams" like Calderwood did in 04/05 i think it's accepted by many that 06 was a "transitional" season for the Rhinos also not taking into account that Donald had travelled half way round the world to completely new comp,club and country.
I know you don't really rate Donald and would of liked to of seen him ditched in the off season but if your gonna compare him with your favourite in Calderwood then do it whilst the factors are similar in terms of the quality of team they are performing in.

You accused him of trying to conduct his contract negotiations with Leeds through the media (and if the transcript I provided is the one you were recalling - as you have accepted it was) then that was published after the negotiations had concluded. The message appears to me to be an explanation from Calderwood to the Leeds fans, describing his pride while playing for his hometown club and assuring them that he will continue to give 110% as long as he was at Headingley, regardless of where his future in 2006 and beyond would be.

To which your reply was?