Walters retiring speed is appalling; it worries me every time he's involved in a tackle that if he's not a marker then there'll be a massive gap in the defensive line.

Agreed - providing his enforced lay off means he can still get his shirt on

It is to be hoped his enforced layoff doesn't mean he's going to return looking like a suntan-injecting mincer from a local gym hangout.

He has got previous after all, and that's without referencing his often liberal use of hair dye.

Only Leeds fans could look at an injury list that has robbed us of (on average) 7 of our first choice 17 every week and claim that it should have zero bearing on the results.

It's not just the players that are missing - and let's not pretend they're not huge misses, players that most of the league would sign in a heartbeat if they became available - it's that as a result other players are having to play when they're not fully fit, fill in in positions that aren't their best and try to learn a new way of playing (a post-Sinfield way) with a constantly changing team made up of whoever's fit and missing the core of the title winning side. No Hall or Briscoe means our back three who did so much damage last year are now a back one. Other people are having to try to do those yards, that means they're not in position to do other things. No McGuire means we lose the vast majority of the attacking structure and control we'd been working on, not to mention his passing and short kicking game. But no, none of that could possibly have an impact on the season.

Yes we should be doing better, obviously we should, but let's stop blaming Mac or a lack of effort and acknowledge that there have been some remarkably extenuating circumstances. Let's see how we get on when we can field anything that resembles a first choice team/squad.

Let's not pretend that Leeds are the only club suffering large quantities of key players, let's not pretend Leeds are the only side having to adjust to new structures due to personnel changes.

Let's mot pretend Leeds have handle this well - Leeds have handle this common set of circumstances worse than any side in SL.

its not the injuries for me, yes i get it and understand how that will stunt our progress but for me its the performances and the lack of addressing issues that are coming up week after week and its a team thing as a whole.We just look like a team that aren't being coached right now and are going out on the pitch in hope that some individual might turn it on and will win games and its just not happening.

It isn't a common set of circumstances. It's a unique set of circumstances. No team has ever experienced this current situation.

- On the back of a Treble
- losing 2 key leaders
- losing the rest of the leaders plus significant others to injury
- missing significant parts of pre-season

You can still think they haven't handled it well, that's a matter of opinion, but it most definitely is not a common set of circumstances.

We all know the " circumstances " and we can see the effort - but in todays game effort is no where near enough. A team needs a game plan , some tactics and a plan of how to stop the opposition.
We cannot produce 5 hitups followed by a kick down field on a consistent basis at the moment. In 2 games against Huddersfiled, on our first set of six -
Week 1 - Sutcliffe bottled the kick & as a result we spent the next 15 minutes in our own half tackling our balls offs. This came back to hurt us in the second half, when in the lead , we could not keep Hudds pinned in their half, as we had run out of gas - not helped when you play a passenger like Aichurch
Week 2 - first set , Sutcliffe bottles it again, but Lilley saves him with a dummy we score.

We cant follow ther process with the first set of six 2 weeks running - I put this down to lousy coaching.

When you are down , you have to work harder than ever - but you need structure and tactics - we have neither.
Our coach hasn`t the brains to get somebody to `rough up " Brough - instead , we stand & watch him 2 weeks running, kick us to death - that is down to the COACH - nothing to do with " circumstances !!

AMEN

Completely agree. One thing that Watkins is still doing extremely well. Like chalk and cheese

I think this is the one issue that goes under the radar so to speak. I still believe their was a mixture of complacency in pre-season from players that they'd turn up and carry on where they left off and also looking at some of the more experienced players a case of "we've pretty much achieved everything" now they won a treble.

How do you motivate/find goals to drive you on? Some rare individuals in all sports have that unique desire to just win trophy after trophy after trophy and in RL it was Sinfield and Peacock. Nevermind their leadership or game management, just their desire to consistently get back to Old Trafford and Wembley each year regardless of how many times they've been successful or not is what was special. At Peacock's age and after already winning 5/6 GF's how did he find the desire to keep getting out of bed with a broken body the morning after a game and push for more Grand Finals? It's something we'd all like to think we'd do in the same situation but unless you're in the situation then you can't be sure.

Some players in sports are happy reaching the top of the mountain and winning one title or one major and then slip back down, you could even ask that question of some Leeds players who departed after the 2004 GF win like Calderwood and Mathers.

How a season ends can have a massive bearing on how the next one goes. If we hadn't have lost our last 5 league games of 2014 and had such a massively disappointing exit to Catalans in the playoffs then would we have started 2015 with 10 wins out of 11 and a complete overhaul of our attacking style? If instead we reached the playoff semis or GF that year? Had we lost the LLS at Hudds last year and fail to reach the GF would the team have been more focused to make amends for falling short in 2015?

To motivate them....
Wigan have the disappointment of losing the GF, Warrington have the disappointment of a poor season.
Widnes, Salford, Wakefield have the disappointment/scare of finding themselves in the middle 8's

What do Leeds have? The reality that they probably won't ever have a more fairytale season?

You make a reasonable case above.
Sipping from my half full glass of Luke warm cat slash it should hopefully result in a pretty hungry group for next season

That's why I think we'll be ok long term even though some are worried we might be struggling for 2/3 years.

Regardless of whether we scrape into the Top 8 or have to negotiate the Middle 8's, either way the next pre-season looks like they'll be a lot of soul searching and focus to right the wrongs of 2016 (look at Warrington this season to last), not the patting on backs "how great were we" of the off-season just gone.

Although 2015 was our 1st treble i honestly don't see how complacency could become a big issue because the Challenge of being defending Champions is added to by big ?'s of how we cope without Sinny JP & Kylie.
That should be motivation enough to focus the Squad & keep their heads out of the clouds imo.

The questions of whether they could cope without Sinfield and Peacock were ones fans/pundits were asking themselves......doesn't mean the players were asking/wondering that themselves. Remember Sinfield and Peacock performance-wise were far from the most important during the majority of last season. If you rated your top 10 performers from last year for us both might struggle to make the top 10, maybe just squeeze in.

I agree on complacency, and stated also previously. However, I also think some players are nowhere near the standard some fans and players think they are, and were made to look good in a good team. That also applies to the coach, and why I feel we will struggle for 2/3 years, unless of course we make changes. A change is as good as a rest, and even though I think some players are not up to, I do believe a new coach would get a lot more out of them.

Which players are you thinking of?

What does any elite athlete have to motivate them - competitive spirit/will to win. It is a factor in getting them to where they are.

Just because you have won something last season why should that impact on the current season? a couple of individuals perhaps but not a whole team?

Many in this side had won 3/4 GF before last year and a CC also - that didn't seem to impact them last season especially the CC which was the holy grail.

They didn't look knackered against Hull FC at home. Or Huddersfield. Or Saints.

The reason they look knackered at times in games is because they're forcing themselves to make a shedload of unnecessary tackles by turning the ball over and giving dumb penalties away. That's what's taking petrol out of the tank in-game.

I don't buy the "disrupted pre-season" excuse for looking jaded. You can do your cardio work anywhere you have an open space, it doesn't need to be in a specific gym or on a 4G pitch. While it might have affected attacking fluency, there was no reason the Boxing Day floods should leave the players short of fitness at Round 1.

You can't do your gym work, nor your tackle or wrestle technique. And you certainly can't combine it in the way Leeds have successfully done for years under Jason Davidson.
Then add in the injuries including the leaders such as McGuire, JJB & Cuthbertson and the back 5 who were so important last year and it explains most of the fall off in performance in my opinion.

I'd also say they looked knackered v Hull and Huddersfield. I think only the home game v Saints did we look good energy-wise.

In several interviews McDermott has eluded to unbelievable things happening outside their control. It got me thinking about all the hullabaloo surrounding GH's attempt to sign Sam Burgess and the rummour of Watkins being offered to Bath as part of the deal. Now I have no idea if this were true but it could have had an unsettling effect on the likes of Watkins as would the new signings if they had a better deal than the old guard.

In fact the departure of Sinfield and JP could also herald a change in the salary structure at Headingley. If we are to re-balance the squad with a mixture of experienced quality and young talent it may mean selling one or two established stars on the wane to fund it.

Why can't you do your gym work, out of interest? What's so different about the weight room that Leeds had at Kirkstall that they couldn't find another similar one in the area? Yorkshire is full of pro sports clubs, all of which must have high standard gyms.

You can't use injuries to explain a lack of defensive urgency from the 17 that are on the pitch. How does Moon. McGuire, Cuthbertson etc being injured cause other players to be slow retreating or miscommunications? It's down to those players that are actually on the field to sort those out, not bemoan the ones sat in the stands.

Leeds are struggling defensively because they're having to do too much work due to their own errors and indiscipline. All else is excuses, and I'd hope those involved day-to-day at the club aren't using them in private as much as they have been publicly.

It has a sprinting track down the middle and it has a wrestle/contact padded area at the end. So you can combine weights with other conditioning and training. They're are gyms but they're public which isn't ideal nor would you be able to book it for exactly when you want it. The same is true for the other pro sports clubs.


I think players who are injured or not fit probably wouldn't show as much defensive urgency. Also, leadership can create such urgency. For an example see JJB in leading the line.
With a lack of urgency it probably comes back to the lack of preseason and the continuing lack of proper wrestle and contact work. Which is obviously affected by the lack of training ground but also by injuries.


It's partly why they're struggling defensively, partly it's because they've had sod all preseason and still can't train as they'd like and half the players can't train properly because they're injured. Those are also primary factors in why the attack is poor and why we're producing so many errors.

When is Stevie Ward due back? I think that will make a big difference as he has the mix of youth and 'next generation' whilst also having been around for ages and many of us were bigging him up for new captain as well...

castlefords "gym" which was upgraded last year is a portacabin, kitted out entirely with weights, that are specific to squats and legs. That is their gym. Look how it has effected them........ no really.