He has hardly played in the halfs for England up until now. Last week on winning there were a lot of plaudits, including those critisizing now. Difference is we lost this week.

All we ever hear about on these boards is how good the NRL is and how only the best players can play in that league. This lad has been standing out for a few years now in that comp, and now it is only because of the players around him.

Many players play to their best because of the players around them. There have been quite a few at Leeds over last decade who have benefited from that. The fact people are talking about McGuire is laughable, as he can't organise a pish up in a brewery. The key is picking the right attributes to compliment others, just Like Leeds have done. Yesterday said more about the England team, where there were many poor performances, than it said about Widdop.

A post from back in July when people were calling for us to sign Widdop - I've always maintained he's an average Joe - some people are fooled into thinking he's great because he plays in the NRL - those people clearly don't watch him often... He has the odd good game, but is generally average to anonymous.... Certainly isn't a leading/organising half - his game management is pretty much non-existent, he's just a running threat....

He has 18 caps for England. A few from the bench fair enough,but he is also 26 now and in his prime so is no rookie. Do tell me about a game he has played above average in, because i can't think of one and that includes last week, imo. I agree with what you say regards benefiting from players around him, Obviously Widdop has benefited more than most when he played for the Storm. Like i say, he needs to show more than he has or he will be criticised with the reputation he brings and now as the senior half.

Well, like i said i don't watch him in the NRL, but what i have seen for England in the past and in this series so far i wouldn't want to see us spending the big bucks on him.

Most of the time when England halves have been poor is because the pack has been on the back foot.That was not the case yesterday. England's pack did a good job and got us going forward. Our halves had no ability to get the ball to our danger players. Having a second row at centre didn't help either

Widdop has never been a stand out player in the NRL - in his days at the Storm he was a bit player who fitted into Bellamy's rigid playing style the focussed on the use of Smith, Cronk and Slater. He was never making decisions about plays or organising the team.

At St George his form has been patchy at best - this season he has been very poor to such a degree that he is playing second fiddle to Benji Marshall.

What he is showing for England is no different from what he has shown in the NRL - he is very one dimensional and lacks some basic techniques.

Like a lot of players he looked better than he was when operating around three of the greatest players of the modern era and a structured style i.e. Bellamy's storm.

I would agree on McGuire's organising skill but he brings a game awareness, skill set and will to win that is light years ahead of anything Widdop has shown.

Why do we select a second rower to play at centre?? Have we no decent centres in Super League?
Williams has shone a few times for Wigan but he's just not international class yet.
It's all well and good having Watkins, Burgess, Hall and Hardaker in the backs but you must supply them with enough ball and space for them to be able to shine.

I'm not a big fan of McNamara or Lowes. They're not creative enough.

Yesterdays game was the worst international I've ever seen.

It [uWAS[/u a terrible spectacle at the worst possible time after the England RU flop. The RU must have been rubbing their hands with glee when they should have been nervous at what 2 supposed top teams in RL should have displayed.
I was slated by some for daring to suggest the last test match (and the French one) were awful; this was even worse. Not just 1 awful team but 2. Horribly boring to watch...and a fillip to the RU in portraying all that is said about RL just being one man carting it up, getting tackled, taking an age to get up, another forward carting it up, getting tackled etc etc. No creativity by either side apart from the amateurish off loads attempted by NZ.
NZ at least had the excuse of not being able to select 1st choice halfbacks; what excuse do England have in that department? As others have said if Widdop is our best, god help us going forward.

As for the centre position....crazy playing Bateman there (Ablett is a better centre). Shenton or Percival or Cudjoe for me.

A very frustrating afternoon at so many levels.

If England lose next week after offering the same turgid fare, I suspect McNamara will be out and McDermott will be in.

I didn't agree with us kicking the 2 early on line that. Now it looks like the most entertaining option on offer.

I actually thought the half back pairing in the first test went reasonably well and felt they would improve.
Williams for me whilst having a good season with Wigan is not yet international class.
Smith is not the answer so possibly Gale to come in next week.
Bateman is not an international centre even though he is tough as old boots and should make the 17.
Westwood for Whitehead and keep Farrel who gets through a ton of tackling

Still not convinced with SOL but he wont be dropped so he keeps his place.
Graham, Hill and Burgess look good as does Cooper.
Either Cudjoe or Burgess to centre with McGilvary to the other wing if Burgess moves over.
Both him and Hall on the wings will run it in to spare the forwards.
Zak needs to link more in the backs and is proving his defence is much better than his attack.
Such a shame Cuthbo did not get picked if nothing else but for his offloading game.
McNammara appears to have learned nothing from his time in Australia as we continue to play this game like we did 20 years ago.

NZ look poor so do we and like others have said two of the most boring games for us to showpiece our game.

We may have lost our best chance to win the series with the inept display in London. NZ were also poor on attack but had continued to improve whilst England regressed badly. We need to make changes in both personnel and tactics but the players we need were not selected in the squad. Williams has had his chances and now Gale deserves a shot. I am not a fan of Cudjoe but he must be able to offer more on attack than Bateman. But I fear the coach has not the capacity to see what is needed.

I was bored stiff. A real opportunity to showcase the game in the national spotlight in a national (but very underwhelming) stadium. Both teams blew it with some very uninspired attacking play. The defence was tenacious but hardly aggressive. I don't think I can recall an international featuring Eng/GB and the Kiwis that has lacked intensity as yesterdays.

Agree a golden opportunity missed. Even the usually superb Roby threw a crazy forward pass that resulted in the nz try from subsequent possession and he did at least one aimless kick early in tackle count. Looked rudderless. They looked tense. If lose next week they will surely get a new coach in. Nz have been average to poor in the halves and it's a real chance to win a series v top nation. Fans get to really get behind them next in the land of pies

Enjoyed having a look around the Olympic Stadium, a few beers in a couple of bars in Westmlnster, and found the infamous Blind Beggar pub in Whitechapel where the Kray twins ran riot.

Oh, and probably the most boring rugby match I have seen in 40 years of watching the game

It's pointless having a 6 & 7 who are basically from the same "mould" in that they are both runners and neither controls a game or has a good enough kicking game.
Williams is a potentially a cracking 6 but he still needs guidance and a 7 that as described above he got neither from Widdop who was forced into running sideways going nowhere RL with a poor kicking game.
As many have mentioned Mcbanana is the problem Farrell did naff all but seems un-subable Bateman is not and never will be an international centre again something which isn't his fault.
It was clueless plodding 1 up RL and the atmosphere at the stadium matched the weather for the 3rd test i'd go with..
Hardaker
Burgess
Watkins
Cudjo(purely because the numpty didn't pick Shenton)
Hall
Widdop
Gale
T.Burgess
Roby
Graham
Ferres
Bateman
O'Lochlin

Hill
Hodgeson
Cooper
Westwood

Widdop simply isn't that good. His running isn't straight enough, he doesn't commit defenders at all, and he doesn't have a killer pass. I was a big fan of his but since he's gone to the Dragons he's been virtually anonymous as an attacking threat.

I do agree that england need a change in mindset - they need to think in terms of moving the ball around. That's when we look dangerous.

what is frustrating is that we have a monster front row, and an adequate second row. We have some excellent backs too. We just can't get the ball to them despite being on the front foot. A change in the halves is needed IMO

The halves are getting a lot of stick, some but not all justified.

Our kicking game was awful. In those conditions we needed a long accurate kicks to gain territory.

The halves were woeful, but then there we very rarely had an option for them apart from a short ball to the forwards. I can count on one hand the times we looked set up properly to shift the ball out wide.

It's difficult for any half to play people into gaps when there are just no options available.

Our forwards certainly put the hard work input there was very little fire, or variety, quick ptb's , offloads. At no out in the game did anyone put any doubt into the kiwis minds.

It's easy to criticise individuals but the main reasons in my mind were;

A) very poor conservative game plan - I've supported McNamara before but he just got this wrong. Why pick a superb attacking winger when we only want our wingers to act as a forward. Even Shaun wane who loves his wingers driving the ball in, knows they are also potent attacking threats.

B) very poor long kicking game

C) far too much energy taken up defending our line in the first half. I really think this took out a huge amount and impacted the energy they put into creating attacking options

D) selection. Get the above 3 points sorted and we could have easily won that with the players on the pitch. But;

Why pick Bateman at centre when we have decent centres . Again it goes back to the awful plan by McNamara of making us hard to beat and not going to win the game. We have one of the best centres in Watkins and he's hardly got a pass.

Why pick williams, promising as he is but obviously not experienced at this level.

Why play Roby as the impact hooker slot?

I have feeling we trained with having Sam Tomkins in mind and when he failed his fitness we threw a last minute team and plan together.

You thought we were on the front foot on Saturday? Not sure what the meterage was, but we seemed to spend most of the time within our 40.

I thought the forwards looked slow, and tired on Saturday. They definitely weren't as effective as they were in the first game. Having no back rowers with any go forward isn't helping to reduce the work load of the bigger lads in the middle, though.

Everything points to the Coach not knowing what he is doing!

A failed SL Coach and Assistant Coach in the NRL shouldn't be our National Coach!

I think we should be looking towards Brian Mac, Shaun Wane and Anderson as a Coaching Team. Brian Mac as Head Coach and the others as Assistant Coaches.

That would be interesting.I'm sure Wane and Anderson would be willing to take orders from general Mac

I thought Tom Burgess played a huge part in changing the momentum of the first test and Ryan Hall had a huge impact too in that game returning the ball.Both were given extra attention on Saturday and we never found that true go forward at all, although we did burn a lot of energy in that first period by giving NZ countless sets on our own line which certainly didn't help the cause.

I thought when we had the ball we made good meters and got quick play the balls. We defended lots of sets on our own line but most of those started in our half.

The point being that the forwards (although not as strong as the first test) certainly gave enough of a platform for us to exploit