Your neglecting the fact that a player may not want to be a reserve at Leeds, and wants to play games. Your also neglecting the fact that Smith will have been on a fair chunk of salary cap, and to lose a decent wedge on a player not in the strongest 17 would be counter productive.

Yes, if he had stayed, he would have improved our squad these last few weeks, but then we may not have been able to afford the strength in depth of squad we have this year

As Lee Smith was under contract at Leeds for the 2013 season that money was already allocated at the time he was released. I've no idea who instigated the departure be it player or club or what the financial severance details were or their implication on the cap.

He would still have been around my 1st choice 17 for 2013 but so would Shaun Lunt, so I accept the argument that he (like others have done) would opt for regular 1st team rugby.



Strength in depth?

Even from just last season's squad Leeds have lost Lunt, Webb, Smith, Hauraki, Pitts, Ambler and Amor while bringing in Moon, Achurch and Vickery. One of those has never played 1st grade has he and he's a 23 year-old back.

If he had come through the Leeds Academy I suspect he'd have been shown the door several years ago.

It's been mentioned elsewhere recently how this alleged greatest ever Leeds squad according to the CEO compares to the one he assembled in 2010. Gone are =#0000BFBrent Webb, =#0000BFScott Donald, =#0000BFLee Smith (re-joined part way through that season), =#0000BFKeith Senior, =#0000BFMatt Diskin, =#0000BFDanny Buderus, =#0000BFAli Lauitiiti, =#0000BFLuke Burgess and =#0000BFGreg Eastwood - replaced by Zak Hardaker, Joel Moon, Richard Moore, Darrell Griffin, Mitch Achurch, Joe Vickery and the promotion from within of Stevie Ward.

Some all-time Leeds greats and RL greats have moved on and been replaced - externally at least - by some pretty average League stars and there are noticeably fewer of them.

Is there a reason you have chosen to omit BJB & Watkins from the promotions from within or do you consider them to be "pretty average" too?

I'd take the 2010 squad to win a hypothetical match against the 2013 squad, or even the Grand Final winning 2012 squad.

But then I'd also take Wigan's 2010 team (with Leuluai, Carmont, Gleason, Riddell, J.Tomkins, Fielden, Deacon) to beat their current side, and Saints' 2010 team (with Graham, Cunningham, Gidley, Pryce, Eastmond, Fa'asavalu) to beat their 2013 outfit. This may be a clue, along with injuries to two of most important players, as to why we didn't win the Grand Final that year.

It's unsurprising that when a salaries go down 15% in real terms in a market that's not entirely closed then quality of personnel will decrease (Warrington excepted, somehow).

So the decision has been made to put Watlins full back for the next 4 games or so. What a shame on the young ones pushing through.

Whats the point having a squad of 30 if you shuffle around the first 19 all the time? I dont see Wigan and Warrington doing that!!!

I dont think Watkins offers anything more at FB than Watson/Sunley apart from body mass. He should have been kept at RC where he is dangerous and let someone come through.

=#0000BFYes there is. The reason I chose to omit them as additions to the squad from 2010 is because both had already made their Leeds 1st grade debuts April 2008 and in Watkins case was already a part of the 2010 squad (Jones-Bishop spent the season playing his SL elsewhere that season) As neither emerged or were additions to the club at that point I ommitted their inclusion although I fully accept the point they have progressed within it since - as you would no doubt hope and expect they would.

________



Quite so. And that would make for an honest appraisal of the current situation in the sport generally and in the club in residence at it's Headingley headquarters.

A squad of players the CEO was publically questioning the desire of in June 2012, weakened still further in 2013 cannot possibly be purported to be the greatest squad ever assembled under his tenure ...... can it ?

You missed Clarkson too, and McShane from 2010.

I think your evaluation is too simplistic.

Pitts, Ambler barely made 10 appearances between them, and were deemed not up to it. Amor, though looking good at Wakefield, was obviously not rated enough, the major big loss. Definitely weakens us IMO. Smith, looked out of shape and uninterested for a couple of years, and offered little when given the opportunity. Vickery may not have shown much in the first couple of games, but I think he's probably ahead of where Smith was last season already. At least he has the desire.

Webb was a liability, with poor disipline. He added something to the Leeds team but was also a liability at some points. I would say Moon is Webb's replacement, and is a very big upgrade. He's settled in the UK already, and has hit the ground running.

McShane vs Lunt is difficult, as Lunt was effective in the play-offs, however, most of the season he was indifferent, and I think we may be a bit rose tinted in this area. Lunt was probably a bit stronger, but he was no Buderus

Achurch vs Amor. A bit early to say, but Amor looks to have the better set of tools, though not seen enough of either to be certain.

With regards to Smith vs Vickery and Amor vs Achurch, the club has decided the outgoing player was not worth a place in the squad, and so has replaced them. I would imagine that the two new recruits are cheaper combined than their pre-decessors.

That extra money allows us to give out new contracts to the likes of Watkins, Ward, Hardaker, Jones-Bishop etc when the need arises.

We may have lost 4 forwards, and only brought in 1, but I think we still have
Peacock
Leuluai
Kirke
Bailey
Moore
Griffin
JJB
Ablett
Delaney
Ward
Clarkson
Achurch.

That's over 2 whole packs (excluding hooker), and still the likes of Singleton etc to come in if needed.

We have trimmed the squad, but I think that its better to have a stronger squad of 22 than a bigger squad of 25, but with weaker players 17-22.

The balance of the squad is better too with the addition of Moon. We now have 2 classy centres and Ablett free to play in his best position in the back row.

Though it seems he is detined to play in the centres.

Not missed but ommitted from the comparison of names just as I did with any player that played 1st grade with Leeds during 2010 (or before) that still remain at the club in 2013. I've conceded some of those coming through the ranks will have moved up the pecking order over the intervening period.

The point was to highlight the quality in the squad of 2010 and for people to judge for themselves if the likes of a 2010 Buderus, Senior, Diskin, Lauitiiti, Eastwood, Burgess etc have been adequately replaced.

They were very adequately replaced in 2011 and 2012. That is to say, in terms of the goal of building a team that wins trophies and makes major finals.

Whether they were adequately replaced in some subjective game of fantasy football devised in your mind and played on paper is something none of us can judge.

Rather than looking inside my mind - which no-one is asking you to do - you could try offering an opinion of your own. Who do you see as adequately replacing Diskin, Senior and Lauitiiti?



Leeds also had a left and right centre in 2010 - albeit one was destined for the second row.

One area that is not as well catered for though I would suggest is hooker, arguably one of if not the most important position on the field. Replacing Buderus and Diskin with McShane and a scrum-half who cannot defend around the ruck.

OK, In 2011 Diskin was replaced by Buders. In 2011 he was replaced by Lunt. Both were adequate replacements in terms of what the team was endeavouring to acheive. In 2013 he has been replaced by a combination of Burrow and McShane.........so far (remember when Lunt joined last year?).

Senior was replaced by Ablett. Hard to replace a legend like Senior but the results were more than adequate and Ablett remains, whether he likes it or not and whether fans realise it or not, one of the best centres in the league. This year he is replaced by Moon. So far so good but remains to be seen.

In 2011 Lautiti was replaced by Lautiti. In 2012 He was. He still hasn't been and he's probably the most irreplaceable player I've seen in a generation. But, he's a decorator. He puts the finishing touches on (and boy did they look good). We still have the builders here. The finished product might not have looked so good in 2012 without Ali but it still stood. I'd hoped Achurch might be the 2013 replacement by our coach sees him more as a prop, sadly.

Overall, taking into account the differences in 2013 to 2010 between our cap and the Aussie cap, the strength of the dollar and the off shore loop-holes being closed I am perfectly satisfied that the squad is in the best shape it can be. I am not satisfied that the coach best utilises that squad on many occassions. Whilst he's not earned the same amount of wiggle room from me that GH has, he's still earned some these last two years.

Excellent summing up for me

Good well balanced stuff G1.

Re-Lunt, he appeared to be wanting to strike a deal with Leeds - Leeds appeared content to let him choose between what I imagine to be an all too Hetherington typical under-valued contract with Leeds or walk.

We'll never know whether that decision cost Leeds a record making 4th World Club Challenge but IMO it didn't help that quest of 'building a team that wins trophies.' Lunt had become an integral part of one such unit, only to be shown/offered the exit. While McShane is apparently not the answer (Gilder) nor your preferred option from twelve months ago (Hood, IIRC) then it will be interesting to see what, if anything, the CEO can magic up this season.

Why would you need to recruit when Burrow has been such a success at 9 and we have recuited Moon at centre who looks a better bet than the ageing 2010 version of Senior. It is unlikley that Lauitiiti at his best could be replaced one for one in any year, however I may be wrong but in 2010 I seem to recall Ali was struggling with his fitness and not at his best and the back rowers that have replaced him have all played important roles in our notable successes since.



IMO the 2010 centre combo was not as good as Moon and Watkins



You still don't get it do you? The game has moved on.....Hookers don't hook anymore! We do not need Burrow to defend around the ruck in the current set up. It has been a big success to play 3 half backs rather than 2 and a traditional hooker. Providing your team has the right mix of defenders, attackers and playmakers and they keep to the game plan then many traditional positions can be changed around. Coaches now make their game plans to keep their best mix of players on the field for the most time in given situations. If we were to sign a hooker again of the quality of Buderus then we would revert to a more traditional game plan.

I'd have preferred Lunt to share hooking duties with Burrow this year as well. I'm like the coach, undecided by McShane. I'll not yet write him off to Gilder's extent.

But Huddersfield always held the cards because of the lengtyh of his deal there. It could just as easily been Huddersfield's terms rather than Lunt's that GH wasn't willing to meet.

Yes I'd noticed that too .... still don't have to like it though.



We can have this discussion on every thread if you wish but couldn't we just confine it to the (Melbourne) thread for now? if I can remember correctly I'd highlighted some defensive alignments from early in that game that I'd be interested to hear your learned alternative take on.

For me it appeared the hooker and scrum-half were doing their own thing to the detriment of the integrity of the defensive line but I imagine I've simply got that wrong. Afterall as long as the coach and players know what there doing - not the players frantically waving for re-inforcements, obviously there new and they'll get used to it eventually.

Still, we made the final ...... so who gives a damn.

Excellent point re the possibility that Huddersfield's terms could have been the stumbling block in that situation, especially with the change of coach mid-season.

Just shows it's possible sometimes for clubs to play a little hard ball without players walking away. Only wish Hetherington had done that with Buderus who (unlike Eastwood) I am certain (as much as anyone can be) would have continued giving 100% to the cause while honouring his contract.

Defensive mis-alignments aren't unique to the current selection.
Really, there is little difference to this structure, and the old. In the old world, 6,7,13 were Mcguire, Burrow and Sinfield, defending on the edges with a middle four of two props, a hooker and a back row. In the new world, the 6, 7, 9 is Sinfield, Mcguire and Burrow defending on the edges with a middle four of two props and to back rows.

I don't think it's a case of old norm V new norm Richie. It's explained in more detail on the Melbourne thread: viewtopic.php? ... &start=267 Having players switching roles from defensive set to defensive set, pairing Burrow and McGuire together on the same side at any point while leaving the last defender opposite (whoever it is) with 30 to 35 metres to patrol on the 4th after the winger has dropped back is going to be exploited by a good passing side such as Wigan and Warrington. I'm only surprised Melbourne weren't all over it like a rash albeit it was their first hit-out so maybe that explains it somewhat. More than once all it would have taken was one reasonable pass from centre field and they would have been outside the condensed line.

I don't think it's a case of old norm V new norm Richie. It's explained in more detail on the Melbourne thread: viewtopic.php? ... &start=267 Having players switching roles from defensive set to defensive set, pairing Burrow and McGuire together on the same side at any point while leaving the last defender opposite (whoever it is) with 30 to 35 metres to patrol on the 4th after the winger has dropped back is going to be exploited by a good passing side such as Wigan and Warrington. I'm only surprised Melbourne weren't all over it like a rash albeit it was their first hit-out so maybe that explains it somewhat. More than once all it would have taken was one reasonable pass from centre field and they would have been outside the condensed line.

It was just an alignment screw up. Not related to our attacking lineup. Those kinds of mistakes are particularly common following a turnover, where players can get caught in the wrong spots without the chance to correct that kicks and scrums give.

Watkins is better at centre. He's the best attacking British centre in SL but very vulnerable in defence at either FB or centre.
At least at centre he has a 2nd rower alongside for support.

Could not agree more. By all accounts Watson deserves his chance at FB thus leaving the second of our "two classy centres" in his best position.

I bet Ablett would prefer this option too

Theoretically I'd agree, but given our next 3 games are Sts, Hudds and Wigan, I can't blame the coach for being a bit conservative in the choice of fullback.