I agree. But in the circumstances of some great servants of the club suffering nasty injuries some contributors here seem to be almost jubilant about the prospect of playing a second string. Well it seems their tired old theory of fielding a youth squad in SL is about to be tested...

The players, the coach, and the CEO i'd imagine, like most other teams. Sinfield I think it was said to the YEP pre-season as have others that finishing top was a target for the team. The challenege cup as eluded this outstanding set of players for years so yes I'd imagine again the players and coach would want that coup. The WCC from a marketing point of view is great to have the tag of 'world champions' so I'd imagine our CEO would have love to have retained it. We have failed in all so far.


Ok fair enough a write off is a harsh assessment. But how about extremely lessoned the chances of us achieving anything of note this season?


The performances of our so called star players to me are hinting of complacency, check out Ryan Bailey's new hoody and T-shirt range if you don't believe me. He obviously has begun to believe in his own hype and the phrase 'he does what he wants' sadly has resulted in him going about the pitch like a loon causing trouble for his own team.


Not quite, plenty of new posters have emerged on this board, posted an opinion which is disagreed with and is essentially hounded out as everything they post from there on in is referenced back to that first opinion. Obviously there are a group of posters who are friends outwith the board who stick up for eachother and this what seems to be ring of posters such as yourself who seem to think can set the standards on the board. You even made a thread about yourself being away and how has equated to the board declining. I.E people are freely expressing their own opinions and not regurgitating the usual rhetoric set by the 'bigger' posters.


Well depending on how you'd like to measure it if we look at it as:
Turnover? Check
Profit? Check
Large attendances? Check
Ability to produce international standard players? Check
Seen as a big game to the other teams? Check
Won large amounts of trophies recently? Check

Whilst not being THE biggest or THE best I'd say it's not unreasonable to call us one of the biggest or one of the best teams in the world. As of which means it's not unreasonable for the fans to expect better from the high standards set by the club previously. It seems they have become complacent on reach such high success.


A club of our stature today should expect more than what we are currently being given. It doesn't matter what we were like before the CEO took over; if our CEO wants to delcare that we have the best squad ever then maybe we should put in performances to reflect as such?


Apparently a large number of fans feel the same resulting in a decline in our attendances as people do not want to watch a team which is only able to perform in 6 or 7 games a year.



It would seem wrong, I'm sure many others feel the same way that a band of posters who frequent the board seem to dictate what opinions can be held and by whom. yes maybe people should 'man up' but is it worth the hassle if they get constantly hounded for holding a differing view of something. Not worth their time.


Well yourself for a start, as most of the posters who believe everyone only cares about the last few weeks of the season. As stated before whilst the recession will be a contributory factor as will others I do believe the lack of apparent effort or consistency shown by the team in the regular season for whatever reason is putting people off going to watch us. Again, I don't see how retaining the likes of Kirke or the lack of progress on the new south stand is going to aid to the situation either. Whilst entirely possible we may go on to win another GF the signs so far do not look good considering I'd say the 3 big games we've played this year have been lost. The WCC, challenege cup and magic weekend fixture V wigan which essentially ends our league hopes. We can assume that the trend of previous years may continue but I've seen little to suggest this year will result in the same outcome.

Who has said or even implied that the Coach doesn't want what's best for the team??
As for knowing players abillities it's about opinions are you saying all is fine and all are either on form or up to Sutcliffe and Singleton thus far have shown it was right to pick them and shock horror maybe they are afterall ready to step up.
Many players are out of form with 1 or 2 jaded not 100% the U19's have lost 1 game all year again i refer you to the Coach and many others statements about rotation and posters opinions that we have had chances to do as such again how does that imply the Coach doesn't want what's best for the team??
It's obvious we have players that are off form and imo 1 or 2 who aren't up to it so should that opinion remain unposted??
Giving young players experience when the chances arise clearly avoids throwing them in at the deep end when the injuries bite now other than square pegs in round holes ,sticking with those not good enough we will have to throw 1 or 2 in cold with players not 100% and lacking form which could have been avoided somewhat.
It worked for Tony Smith and even Mclennon indeed our current Coach has done it with Ward and others all im saying is it should continue and we have missed chances now we have injuries and loss of form so whoever comes in it will be more difficult than coming into a winning side with top players firing on all cylinders.
There's no agenda or saying we know better than the coach (from most of us) and it's certainly a method that's worked extremely well for us in the last decade or was that logic flawed and bollox aswell??
No-one is suggesting anything outragous or what hasn't happened previously

Not this poster and that's you clearly mis-reading/understanding my opinions if you think that's the case.
As for the rest i refer you to my above post i've clearly set it out and i stand by it.

For a statement like that to be valid you must know better than the coach. The fact that he is a coach that wins competitions and you're not doesn't improve your arguments' prospects. I've never suggested invalid arguments shouldn't be posted although I thought the tone of some of yesterday's posts - not yours - was pretty poor given the nature of some of the injuries suffered by experienced players.

Anyway, as I say, the opportunity to field a more youthful squad is here. I hope it's a valuable experience.

Ok lets put it this way i assume you haven't won a GF either as a Coach do you think ALL our team are in form and EVERYONE of them is up to it for a top 4 team?
As for the injuries i'd never take pleasure in seeing a player injured serious or otherwise especially lads like Mags and Watkins.
In terms of experience for the younger lads it will show us imo either way if they are good enough/ready or have the potential to be good enough/ready and in the end if they should be moved on or retained but at least we'll have a clearer idea.

Have people even bothered looking at the seasons situation......

- We have 2 quite winnable games in hand which would take us up to 3rd.
- 1st-4th & 6th still have cup runs to navigate through.
- 10 of our 12 league games since the WCC were against Top 8 teams....
- 8 of our next 10 are games against teams outside the Top 8

- Whilst not being at its best the last few games our defence is still a big improvement on were it was during the 2012 season. Seen several defensive showings this year that give cause for encouragement.
- We seem to get downfield ok and making metres hasn't been a problem, we were pretty even with Hudds & Hull in that department even though we weren't at our best.
- Our attack in the final 20m is the issue and has been even when winning, but now due to McGuire's injury it looks like we're going to get the chance to see the balance of the side improve with McShane at 9....if not that then Sutcliffe in the halves which people have been crying out for anyway.

Whilst I don't wish injury on anyone, the McGuire one could yet prove to be a 'blessing' ala Senior (2011) & Webb (2012).

As for the old "not enough effort during the regular season".....their is no doubt we haven't played to well in the last 4 games but I certainly wouldn't say that's due to effort and just being off form. The way Wigan have smashed teams this year, you don't lose by just 4 with what some was a debatable VR decision. In fact in all the 4 losses we've been below par yet gone into the final 10 mins still with a chance to nick the win.

Already I'm hearing murmurings of people not going to bother attending games again....."if they don't care why should I blah blah blah".....however as I see it the next home game against Cas has become much more interesting due to the fact we're going to see plenty of different faces and probably a different balance to the side. The likes of Sutcliffe, Singleton, McShane, Clarkson and Keinhorst and maybe others, players people on here have been asking to get games/more minutes....well now is your chance to see it.....or are you going to bail because of a poor showing last week? If anything these lads need your support more than the regular 1st teamers did.

Whilst I agree with the Printers sentiments, lets get behind the lads, I'd like to know where he gets those rose coloured specs from!!!

Leeds just need to return to winning ways and get back on the horse, then suddenly things will have a different complexion.

Remember leeds have 2 games in hand, if they can manage to win those they are right back in contention for 2nd place and ready to apply presssure to first if wigan were to slip up. Get some bodies back as well, week off for the CC final just before the playoffs, and suddenly things start to look very promising....it's likely they could end up being 2 big games at home away from another grand final.

We just have to ride out this rough period and stay strong.

In terms of our likely rivals, wigan and hudds have had it all their own way so far and warrington have been abit hit and miss. Hull, after an initial run of very winnable games have managed to build up some confidence and momentum and knock off a few of the top teams. In playoff rugby we'll stand every chance and they'll be nothing in it.

Stay calm.

Since the WCC leeds have had a very tough run. Had it not been for their own stupidity (wigan and saints) they would have negotiated it with only a cuople league defeats.

Things have the potential to really come together at the right time again now with an ''easier'' run over the next few months and some players returning as well as no challenge cup run, which some of our rivals will have.

This team isn't done yet, don't let your belief waiver.

It's delightfully cute how those with negative views complain that they'll be derided and attacked for their opinions when its actually them doing it to posters who don't think so doom and gloom about our situation.

God loves a hypocrite

All this, whilst a degree of truth, is completely missing the point. Players are regressing under this coach, player development is not happening, and in the long term the club will go backwards because of it. That's not opinion, it smacks you straight in the face if you have your eyes open.

Some of these players are still quite capable of delivering silverware in the short term. But that could still be the case with changes also. By standing still we will suddenly hit the wall and have to start all over again in the medium term.

Good post.
Don't think we can totally
Write the season off yet, but some excellent points

My personal opinion of our coach is that he isn't the right person to handle the very difficult task of transition. For me you have to give credit for what we have won over the past few years but our attack is dreadful, we rely on individual acts of brilliance. Our defence has improved this year from the precious 2 years but is gradually
Slipping back again.
My worry is that the coach is milking the "golden generation" and that in the long term we will be left behind and have to rebuild on a big scale. There are clearly players who it doesn't matter how they play they will be picked. And there are players being completely flogged IMO.

I do worry regarding the long term future.

i would agree. you have to give him credit for what he has achieved, and i wouldn't rule out another title this year. it think we will go close again.
however as you say i'm not convinced he is a coach to oversee a transitional period

You have imagined a great deal and based your premise upon the results of your imagination.

I wouldn't agree with that either. Like I said, many of our previous titles have been won notwithstanding injuries.


Ive seen plenty of effort. I've seen nothing that hints at complacency.

I'm flattered and insulted. Flattered that you think I set the standards and insulted that anyone would think I could set such low standards.

FWIW, you've mi-interpreted my thread, which was about the Rhinos recent poor results. Also, I post far, far less frequently these days than before. I'll accept I can often be too quick to call an idiot and idiot but life's too short these days and there does seem to be a proliferation of idiots on here, always has been. I assume that is someone can switch on a PC, get net access and pluck up courage to post an opinion online they can handle a robust response.

Remind me again what the problem is?

Fans shouldn't expect anything.

Did he declare any such thing?

I'm not the most sensitive of souls but boo frikkin hoo. Like I said, there seems to be an element of "if you disagree with me you're a bully". Just let your opinions speak for themselves. So far, nobody has called you a fekkwitt or or questioned your style of posting yet you have made several irrelevant defensive comments about others# style of posting. Give it a rest.

I've seen plenty to suggest that when push comes to shove this set of players and heck, even this coach (whom I am not a fan of) will be there or thereabouts.

"That's not opinion"........well sorry but it is.

Whilst still with problems to fix (like any club, and like we had under Smith and McClennan) we haven't gone past the point of no return like some seem to think is fact.

I'd say we are much better placed than 12 months ago.
- Hardaker has replaced Webb as FB
- Singleton (only 1 appearance in both previous years) with 3 to his name so far and several weeks before Peacock comes back and moved ahead of both Moore and Griffin since the start of 2013.
- McShane on loan last year, now regularly in the 17, getting more minutes and although not the starts he will probably get that chance.
- One future pivot (Ward) established as a first teamer, maybe not playing pivot yet but absolutely nothing to suggest he won't end up there (note Sinfields early career).
- Another future pivot (Sutcliffe) getting introduced into the first team this year in a similar way.
- A very good signing at centre in Moon so we aren't plugging a gap anymore.
- Keinhorst could well be given the opportunity to stake a claim to be a first teamer over the next few months, this could finally free Ablett up to stay in the forwards.
- Peacock has massively benefitted from international retirement and Leuluai is going better than we expected.
- We if rumours true have an international winger (Briscoe) coming in.
- McDermott has actually expressed that other youngsters are close to contention.
- Our defence has improve massively from previous years.

On the glass half empty side we seem to have
- Vickery keeps getting picked instead of an academy lad (we have BJB close to return so hardly critical).
- Kirke has a new 2 year deal, which in some peoples minds mean he'll DEFINITELY get picked every single week ahead of academy props for the full duration of that contract.
- Burrow keeps being picked at hooker, well now we'll probably see what McShane can do there for the remainder of the year and Burrow back at 7.

Great to see a proper "Substandard" thread again on here. It's like pre 2004 all over again!

Keep it up lads.

Reading this thread with interest as a Wigan fan. Thought I'd offer my tuppence worth.

I watch a lot of Leeds on Sky (!!!) and went to both SL games as well as coming over for the World Club Challenge.

Thought that the Magic game could have gone either way. Leeds played really well and I was impresed with Hardaker, Watkins, Moon and Hall. Sinfield I can't figure out. I'll leave it to your better jugement on him. But I thought your pack (and defence) was excellent. Against Melbourne, if Burrow hadn't dropped the ball you would probably have beaten a truly great team.

Wigan have been performing really well this season so far, but everyone knows that Leeds will be a different proposition come September/October and also Leeds have had a much tougher start to the season than Wigan. Easy points will be picked up over the next few weeks. The difference between the two teams is paper thin. We lost the play off qualifier last season by one point, lost at Leeds in March, also a close game and managed to win another close game last week with only Green missing from our best team, whilst Leeds had missed half of your pack, including this season's stand out prop.

McDermott is a succesful coach with a proven track record. Given his playing pedigree, his role as an assistant and then his success over the last two years, is he really such an idiot who knows nothing, has learnt nothing and shouldn't be given the benefit of your doubt? Given the make up of the competition, with the play offs giving no real benefit to finishing in the top 2 as they used to do, why would anyone write offf the season as long as you finish top 8?

From what I've seen this year I would say that Leeds/Wigan/Huddersfield/Wire are pretty equal and don't write off the chances of Hull/Catalans and even Saints with Roby fit again. In other words it's all to play for.

Do we bank that rumour but ignore the rumour of who might be leaving ? - and I don't mean Jones-Bishop to Warrington.

I'd be happy to see Briscoe arrive as an addition to the backline squad but don't believe it will happen - and if it did I suspect the other rumour could unfortunately also be true.

Even though the player(s) concerned in said rumour has/have completely dismissed it??

Are you referring to Hall or Watkins? From what I hear the latter is far more likely to be targeted by NRL sides than Hall.

Think he means BJB to Warrington.

Absolutely. Often the case where the firmer the denial the more likely it is to happen.

What a great performance tonight against Widnes!!! injuries have forced the use of our young guns, who all played great, they were exciting to watch and were well led by the senior players who were fantastic, setting a brilliant example to the new boys. It was really good to see the blend of enthusiasm and experience, it reminded me of the 60's when Leeds first became successful under Roy Francis with a group of brilliant local lads, led by the experience of Harry Poole and co.
We may not win SL this year with the senior players out, but the experience gained by our young players will set us up for success in the years to come.
Finally how good it was tonight to see players playing in position, McShane and Burrow, with a proper stand off.
Come on Leeds !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!