The most indicative statistic you've put confirms what I see on match days and what I've regularly complained about. There is no dominance of any collision by Kirke, either in attack or defence. That he had nearly half as many tackle busts as Bailey (in 2 extra appearances) just shows how meekly Kirke takes it to the line. I'll agree that statistic is useful.

The tackles stat is not so useful. How do you measure winning the collision in a tackle?

i would agree g that kirke should not have got a contract this year, for me the odd good game isn't good enough. however i would suggest that bailey needs to up his game because frankly he should be so much better

Bailey started showing signs of the potential he has from mid last season onwards. I know people get on his back but he's only just (3 months) 27 and as far as props go was a skinny kid up until a year or so ago. Some guys (Sam Burgess/Stuart Fielden) peak early and are good kids. Other props start to play well when they get to late 20's/early 30's.


Also the stats that are being brought up about metres per game/ metres per carry. Wasnt Kirke running into outside backs for a lot of those stats?

1 and 3 are opinions not shared by all. Neither can you pick and choose a stat that suits your arguement then use phrase 3 to rule out those that do not.
Comment re GF rings which is another favourite with the Bailey Fan Club is not evidence of another string in his bow.

I want the poster to tell us what extra strings that Bailey brings which exceeds that of Kirke, Cross, Leuluai and back them up with facts not opinions i.e statement: He wins collisions, I've seen it, give examples. Other people have seen him consistently driven back in the tackle/ lose collisions, unless backed up with stats or examples it is just as invalid.

Are you trying to say that "Ryan Bailey has 4 Grand Final rings" (in the context of winning them rather than currently possessing them) is not a fact?

I have DVD's showing him collecting a ring at Old Trafford on 4 seperate occasions, if you would like to borrow them


Also, I think Radford, Graham and Mary (among others) would agree he winds up the opposition

This is a point I was making last year. The go forward for both these two big men is just not good enough.

I have a personal theory that tall men do not get into their stride quick enough to be effective go forward props and are too easily tackled. There are exceptions - Peacock has exceptional strength and leg power and Morley has pace and rugby aggression. Sadly Bailey and Kirke lack these qualities which is why their go forward game is poor and why neither power over for tries close to the line like Graham and Cunningham (really was a prop) do.

I suspect their high centre of gravity plays a part - top heavy almost. Watch the lock forwards in a union game; huge, strong men but absolutely feeble when it comes to making yardage.

You could argue his improved form in the 2nd part of last season was in contrast to his poor form in the first part.

Bailey has improved the number of tackles per game over the last few years but his metres per carry has deteriorated. Possibly his most effective season was back in 2004 as a 2nd rower.

At best both Bailey & Kirke are bench players who are not in the same class as the likes of Peacock, Graham, Morley etc. The later two will possibly have fewer GF winners rings but are several classes better that messrs Bailey & Kirke

I meant this as a compliment. He had the physique and go forward of the best props plus the great distribution skills of a half back.

No! read my post again. 4 GF medals does not constitute another string in his bow!

You think. That's your opinion. examples please!
Still waiting for another string in his bow!

Come on guys stop giving honest opinions, jesus!

Lets stick to the stats.

Stats come from someones judgement, i.e. an opinion, hopefully an objective one.

There is a world of things that the stats don't cover (especially context) that certain players are very good at (defensive man selection, knowing you have a role in defence even if you aren't literally tackling, position, holding down just long enough, winning penalties, winning the mental battle, forcing your opposition into tight spots, driving the ball up knowing you will be pounded but it will create space and time later. I could go on but I simply don't want to)

Hi BB wondered where you'd been. Been having your afternoon nap?

Your man is no better than the others for most of the above except perhaps in the niggle department. Bailey as I have said has improved his tackle rate and is generally reliable for 21/22 tackles per game.

What the stats do not show for anyone is how many tackles are first up or 3rd in so we can only go on the number for work rate.

I just wish he would put in some leg drives and gain us more metres.

The rampant racism towards TMFMISL has even spread amongst our own supporters.

Very sad.

I seriously beg to differ.

In defensive position, marshalling the middle of the park, knowing when to make contact and when to fill in - he is light years infront of most of his other team-mate props. From watching most matches it's clearly visible.

The rot has set in.

Very subtle.

I don't know about the most feared but he's certainly one of the most talked about and he doesn't even have to take to the field to spark a mass-debate. Hopefully tomorrow he'll be available and give the protagonists some more ammunition.

If you watch him 90% of the time he wins the ground i.e lands on his chest and elbows and gains a quick ptb which is just as good as imo 5/10 metres of a leg drive and a slow defence controlled ptb.
Also what the stats don't show is exactly how many defenders come into tackle him or shoot out at him and try put the big hits in which creates space and also gains penalties.
Although the numbers don't show it he has and does play a good role for us and also the opposition want to get at him and believe it or not it takes them off their concentration in defence.

You make a fair point here and I acknowlege his ability to regain his feet and win some quick ptb's or penalties.



I am not so sure about your last points. I don't think he attracts more tacklers than anyone else. Maybe this happens sometime after he has fouled or niggled a bit but just as often he is pushed back over the gain line.

What I do think is that he has a fan club that overrate his niggle benefits and overlook his shortcomings at this level. I am not saying he is rubbish and I also acknowledge that he has made a regular contribution over the years as a steady squad man. But he is light years behind the best.

I am willing to pre-empt this weeks stats and say Kirke made a mighty 5 carries tonight, max.

Robbed some kid of a shirt again tonight.

Mind you, he made no errors. Put in no effort and you avoid erros.

TBF I remember him winning 1 collision... The turf broke up as his back hit it.

Kirke didn't appear to be on for long either - if so poor workload management by the coaching staff again.

www.therhinos.co.uk/news/16135.php Perhaps Pitts speaking out against MCD's odd decision to only give him 5 minutes game time against the quins?

www.therhinos.co.uk/news/16135.php Perhaps Pitts speaking out against MCD's odd decision to only give him 5 minutes game time against the quins?

I gave him too much credit. 4 carries.

Dear oh dear.