I'd agree...but a theatening at the line half back wouldn't go amiss either.

The inability to score points is the salient fact; it's such a shame when considering the wonderful defence and especially the scrambling defence shown this season.

brierley would be a top signing but has hetherington got the balls to lose one of the half backs, has he got the nerve to spend the money and would BM play him anyway?

It's hardly been a disaster of a season.

CC win.

That would be a good if not great year in most teams books and winning them both when they are at the same end of the season has always been a tough challenge.

Look how Cas have dropped off in form.

I said when Leeds knocked us out, that it would be tough for them to finish near the top and that it would help us when we played you again.

I did not foresee us losing all our play makers, but that aside, the point was, whoever got to the CC final was going to struggle for league and playoff form.

At Saints most fans are happy given our players with the LLS and anything else is a bonus.

Wigan are probably now firm favourites for the GF and lets face it anyone can knock on and drop a ball. I always dispair how the last mistake is seen as the crucial mistake.

Hall dropped it off a kick, giving 80 meters away, is that not just as crucial?

....you're right (that was awful) but human nature being what it is it is poor old Briscoe's faux pas that will be remembered for a very long time. Hall's will be forgotten. Briscoe has been many a supporter's scapegoat for 2014, which doesn't help.

I don't think the coach is the major factor by any means.
We're playing with only 2 props and have no impact off the bench.
I've often defended Bailey and Kirke in the past but they haven't stepped up to the mark to take over some of the workload (both quantity and quality) from Peacock and Leuluai.

I firmly believe our problems stem from the forwards. We aren't getting beaten in the backs, it's slow ptb's and fast ptb's for the opposition that's beating us. We need some size and quality in the forwards to change that around. Made even more important with the impending retirement of our 2 props.

Personally, unless Bailey really steps up next season, I think we need at least another 2 props, in addition to Cuthbertson, to be signed from outside over the next 2 seasons. And I'd release Bailey & Kirke.

At hooker, I think Aiton will be a perfectly good hooker with more game time. Which he'll get when one of McGuire, Burrow, Sinfield retires.

The only other issue is the halves. I think the McGuire, Burrow, Sinfield combination still works. I think the forwards are the main reason for our poor attack.
But we've still got the halves to replace in a relatively short time frame. A bit less straightforward, it depends a lot on Sutcliffe's development. IF he develops into a good half then we still need 1 other. I think Moon is capable of playing 6 but that obviously leaves a gap at centre. So we may need at least 1 signing at halfback or centre.

Some quality signings needed over the next 2-3 years. However I know it's not as easy as that, the right players have to be available.

There's no attacking threat in the halves. Ever noticed how we never really create overlaps? Yet wigan create them nearly every set when they attack. Defence can set up as if the halves will pass the ball, because they don't have a running threat anymore. How many times is there gaps and half gaps but mcguire and sinfield always never quite get through. Green and smith are through them.

We don't have the forward's in motion and structure as much either but the main issue is the halves.

But we've had a younger, quicker guy in Sutcliffe play in the halves quite a bit and he hasn't shone. Warrington had some very strong years recently with that speed merchant Briers at 6 so I never buy this "halves need speed" thing. Granted it's a more than usual attribute to have but if there isn't enough happening off the ball to put doubt in a defenders mind then it doesn't matter how much speed they have.

The problem we have in the forwards in the opposition 20m.....apart from Ablett do any of them poise a threat? Not really. Peacock as warrior like as he is taking carry after carry gets his hands on the ball in the opposition 10m far too much for my liking as he kills momentum usually when he does.

Note some of the scores Sinfield created last year for England in the World Cup. The one for Burgess against NZ, the one for Westwood vs Fiji, both came due to good support and good lines run by forwards on the end.

On the left we have Ablett - Moon - Hall, all very promising but too often it's 3 vs 3 as not enough has happened to suck defenders in. One thing I'd like to see is Hardaker get involved more on the left side of attack, seems to pop up there very rarely whereas he's always on the right side.

The main issue for me is structure. Wigan play to a rigid structure and utilise dummy runners. All of there players know what they should be doing and when. In contrast, we play an off-the-cuff type of play with a hooker who half the time doesn't know what he's doing let alone the rest of the team. Wigan create overlaps with structure.

Overlaps are generally created by support runs from forwards, we don't have that. In my view, that's because our forwards on the pitch are having to play with only 2 props and in defence are desperately making last ditch tackles instead of getting 2/3 men in quickly and dominating the tackle. So our forwards are knackered when we have the ball.

Of course our halves have slowed down, but I still don't think they're a major issue. I think, in the games where our forwards dominate, our halves prove their worth. Either way they'll only be around another couple of seasons and will need replacing either way.

Wigan's tactic works because they only have 1 tactic. Run hard, tackle hard, do out the back play followed by out the back play until a try is scored.
Sometimes it works sometimes it doesn't.
I also find it very boring and nowhere near as good as our play was early in the season.

Get some forwards in to dominate the tackles, our backs and halves, slow as they might be (though Burrow's not slow), will do fine.

But we had a chunk of possession early doors, also did vs Wire in the Cup semi and didn't come away with the points our field position warranted. So it's not a fatigue issue.

Halves don't necessarily need pace, but they do need fast accurate possession to be effective. Leeds' PTB is pedestrian and has been for years especially from JP, Kylie and Delaney. I'd also add that too often our halves are standing still when they receive the ball making them more predictable. One thing I like about Blake Green is that even though he isn't lighting quick, he always receives the ball at pace which creates doubt in the opposition defence because they don't know if he will run or pass.

So even though our halves aren't fantastic they're still very good. If our forwards were able to punch more holes we'd see instant improvement from them. One player whom think would really strengthen Leeds is Elliot Whithead.

the decision not to retain kyle amor looks better by the week.......................

Briscoe thinks hes world class and asked fc for silly wages luckily we didn't buckle to his demands and by all accounts he has been average and a weak link for you guys so glad he has gone. He looked better for us as we had a very average back line where at leeds they got a quality backline and he hasn't shone at all

It's not the only issue. Very few of our forwards dent the line when they take it in. There's Peacock and occasionally Leuluai. The rest of the time they're dealt with quite easily. Compare this to Wigan, Warrington or Saints forwards.

But we make the yards forwards, the stats prove this.

Metres made 2014

Leeds - 38,008
Wire - 37,618
Wigan - 36,754
Cas - 35,846
Saints - 35,829
Hudds - 34,258

2013 was a pretty identical list

I know it's not all down to forwards and our back three play a big part but if you're making more metres than any other team in the league then you shouldn't be the lowest scoring team out of the top 6. Regardless of the method (heavily reliant on Peacock, the back 3) we DO get field position enough to score more points than we do.....but we don't.

And whilst our back three give us good metres so do the backs of Wigan, Saints and Wire so the forwards must do a good enough job and aren't the liability some think......however they do offer next to nothing 10m from the line. That's where an added figure to the coaching staff is needed.

For all the talk of players leaving, players coming in, players stepping up from academy......it's getting an Assistant coach that is the key factor for next year.

Are those stats for teams or just forwards? How do our stats look when you take Hardaker/Briscoe/Hall kick returns and first drives out?

Even if our stats turn out to be ok we look more likely to score from 60 yards out than 20, something which probably has got worse in the second half of the season with our new-found tactic of drilling the ball into touch whenever we get into an attacking position.

For the team as a whole, but like I said, the backs for the other Top 6 have hardly been slouches themselves now have they. And even if we rely more on our back 3, we still must be getting down field enough if we're comfortably the top metre maker.....so something is wrong in executing field position to points. An issue I pointed out well over 12 months ago but was shot down with just typical cries of "the team's too old and past it".

and the coach still hasn't addressed it.

McDermott OUT

Reckon he's reached/reaching his shelf life at Leeds but an off-season change isn't likely.

Whilst winning trophies means he deserves more respect than the look-down-their-nose abuse some continuously give him on here, both previous coaches won titles and it was right to move on from them.

As a off season change is unlikely then a key addition to the coaching staff is the thing I look forward to.

Four years is a good stint, time for some fresh ideas - particularly on attack. I think we also need a new approach to player retention and development, I think some of our coaches values are getting in the way of making decisions that are needed.

It's been a good season overall, the cup win was awesome, and no easy run to get there either, but I am totally hacked off with our approach to the regular season. McD seems to be a one trick pony - under achieve, develop siege mentality, exploit underdog status, hope the great players we gave drag us through several playoff games. What a total waste that early season form was.

But I don't think we are getting in good field position. Our back 3's excellent returns and work rates get us up-field away from our try line but I don't see us camped on the oppositions try-line very often.
We don't get quick enough play the balls, because we're too heavily reliant on 2 props.
When we get those play the balls, we look dangerous. When we don't we look slow and ponderous.

I don't think our halves have been brilliant this season by any means, but I don't think they're the major issue. Get some forwards in who'll actually take it forward with energy and our halves and threequarters will flourish. Like they did early this season.
Until we do that we'll rely on Peacock and Leuluai to roll us forward. We have second rowers (Delaney & JJB) trying to do props work. That should only be when we have injuries, not a regular occurrence because our 3rd & 4th props aren't doing anything like enough.

As big a Sinny fan as i am, I think he shares the blame with Briscoe, why didn't he take the ball up himself, if he stays in the field of play great lets have another forward do the same, if he gets pushed back over the try line we waste another 30 od seconds and the ball ends up 50 yard from our line. Just my opinion, didn't think we deserved to win anyway, but at least make them score a try not gift one to them.

We have to be able to score from further out than right on the opponents line. In fact we convert goaline pressure very poorly, partly because we don't have a 9 who can crash over from short range (McShane was actually very good at this).
I have always thought that good attacking sides are more dangerous from 20 to 40 metres out. We are not a good attacking side, we certainly under perform with the talent that we have and I don't think that has anything to do with props.

In hindsight, yes

But if he gets pushed back for the drop out he gets slated for not passing (remember he could only run one way due to being so close to the side).......had he run and stayed in play them the same issue would've applied to the next play. It was a run of the mill play and it wasn't a bad pass at all......it was simply a Briscoe c**k up, but he wasn't the only one to c**k up before anyone complains.

You can't do 5 drives from dummy half from your corner flag and expect to get away, at least one pass is needed, note one simple pass (which is what it was) it wasn't some over-elaborate play.

See I still think it does, because I think we're poor at attacking because our play the balls are often too slow.

In my opinion the lack of decent 3rd & 4th props contributing decent workloads and quality play leads to second rowers trying to do that work instead. Leading to fewer support runs and slower play the balls. Which means our backs are having to attack a set defence with little support.

Don't get me wrong I don't think our halves have been good enough for most of this season (in my opinion they haven't adapted well enough when under pressure) but I still think the main problem is in the forwards.
The starting lineup for Leeds, I think, is very good:
8. Leuluai
9. Aiton/Burrow
10. Peacock
11. JJB
12. Ablett
13. Delaney

But the players to come on from the bench just don't bring anything like enough. And, in my opinion, Leuluai should be coming off the bench like we did when McDermott was coming to the end of his career.

I happened to see the 2005 WCC again recently and it struck me how much more potent and impact our bench had then compared to now, especially in the forwards.
2005
14. Burrow
15. McDermott
16. Poching
17. Lauitiiti

2014
14. Aiton
15. Bailey
16. Achurch
17. Sutcliffe