Pot calling the kettle here im afraid and your missing the point by a mile, its not just about coaching them into the player they are individualy, that process starts when theyr kids, good coaching at the top level is about putting the players into systems and structures that get the best out of them

You must think Sinfields dense because he's paying Long a wage to be our attack coach, whys he doing that? Whys he paying JJB to be our defense coach? He must have this silly notion that coaching matters.

Good players with good coaching beat good players with poor coaching.

If coaching wasnt massively important, clubs wouldnt be fighting over the good ones

Im not sure what you are trying to argue about Seth to be honest. Ive said repeatedly on here our overseas signings have been poor and certain players shouldnt have got extensions. Ive said for 2 years were not at the standard of Saints and Wigan even at our best.

Just go back to the pages when the game was actually on last night and read the comments. My point, as i said in my post is weve players playing out of position, weve kids playing weekly, weve players just returning from injury, certain players are having to play longer minutes and weve around 10 players out. What part of that are you disagreeing with?

To be criticising the team the way some are when despite all of the above it is visably trying its best and competing most weeks is absolutely ridiculous. Some seem to have very unrealistic expectations of everyone at the club.

Chripes, we went to Saints with a half back pairing of Rhyse Martin and Cam Smith and competed. This team has a lot going against it at the moment and previous teams wouldve thrown the towel in but this team is choosing to compete weekly inspite of the limitations ive mentioned.

Cmon Seth, you are better than that.

98 and 2004 the coaches made a difference and we were lucky with injuries 2005 some key injuries, think we were fairly stable 2015 some finals replacements have done well hall , smith walker , harris and cuthbo were unique in their time

but it probably won't mean as much as 99 or 2014 for different reasons and one good game last year doesn't provide a get out of jail indefinately,

Well we got the two points which is the main thing. From last night prior and mik are quality props, I think king looks a decent signing good bench prop looked solid. Thought broadbent looked like he needed a rest he’s done well for us but looked like he needed a rest. Think myler coming back will be good and also helps out half backs from fullback. Was really impressed with O’Connor, good D. And gannon looks quality. Not having a go at Walter I like him for the future but you can tell he is a youngster getting into the team, gannon just looked like he belonged. I have never rated sutcliffe as a half we need a bit of stability with Gale and a settled standoff with myler at back and we will be ok.

so in effect like most people only fully happy with mik and prior but happy giving their all.... in the ground i'll sing for a team giving it's all and cheer a win but in analysis look at who's put us in the position of being happy with effort and it's not the injuries. either kev /gh recruited bad or kev/agar not good enough coaches

I don't think I need to be better than anything. My criticisms are actually in line with the 'u9s/unprofessional' criticisms you made yourself. I think I'm experience enough to be able to discern when a team/player is getting the best out of themselves (or near) again taking mitigating factors in to account. I was full of praise for the team in the Wigan, cas and saints games and the team did themselves proud, similarly though I've been critical the last 3 weeks as they have been poor (yes, even for a team missing the players they are). This is alluded to by agar himself.

I'm not disagreeing with the statements you make but that actually its not the younger players that are the issue (who could have many mitigating factors for any indifferent performances) rather some senior players again as agar himself mentions. Many of these performances and (to quote agar) 'crazy stupid errors' go beyond mitigation, similar to your thoughts on the basic skill level of the 9s, that's not about players missing. . My confusion is that you seem to hit the roof when anyone says the performance is awful yet on the other hand have said similar. If it's the way over the top statements of mass clear outs you refer to then they're very few and far between I dont know why you let them get to you.

Few and far between Seth? We are upto.page 38 and the game was only last night.

You wasnt happy with Gannon and O'Connor last night? I thought they was both outstanding. Really enjoyed watching them did you Doc?

Plenty of reasonable criticism in those 38 pages yes, way over the top mass culling posts;few and far between.

Another crazy comment Shabs!
Of course coaching matters or why would every pro sports team in the world bother?
Successful teams are a combination of quality players and quality coaching.
Why did we get rid of Furner so quickly if coaching doesn’t matter?
Main role of the coach is to prepare the team to win the next match!

Correct. Simply laughable to suggest a coach makes no real difference. I present the case of Marco Bielsa at LUFC and rest my case. Also Graham Murray from Dean Bell with little player turnover.

Murray benifited from the addition of four extremely good players: Godden, Glanville, Powell and Fleary. Great coach though he was I don't think we'd have made the 98 GF with a Murray coached 97 squad.

And just to build on that, does anybody seriously think that 98 squad would have been competitive with 10 regulars out? Without bothering with a full like for like comparison how would they have coped without both full backs (Harris & Hilaire), both half backs (Powell, Sheridan) chief enforcer - Morley? Come on, how many games did that side win with even Harris missing? None of this is meant to decry Murray, who is my personal favourite coach, just to point that a coach cannot achieve success with key play makers absent.

Doesnt matter tho cos there was an atmosphere in the South Stand and im sure the 100 yr old corrugated stand, with a spiral staircase and pillars blocking views, while fans stood ankle deep in pee after queueing 10 mins to get into the bogs would have got us ample wins even without any half backs, Iestyn and Moz.

Its funny i dont remember much atmosphere in that centenary season and SL 1 when the team and club was really struggling.

LMAO.

Fleary arrived with no fanfare atall, he became a very good player, under a very good coach, in a system that got the best out of him.

Ofcourse the better the set of players the better the structures and systems work, thats so common sense it dosnt really need saying. But to say coaching isnt that important is ludicrous, a good set of players with good coaching beat a good set of players with poor coaching...This isnt related to our current situation as we seem to of veered off track, this is just an opinion on Rugby or team sports in general.

On our current situation, like i mentioned earlier, even taking into account our injurys, our attack looked comically bad with plenty of good ball on friday, against a very poor team. Early days, but as a specialist attack coach, id be pretty dissapointed with what my attack served up.

Everything else looks pretty good on the whole, defence, pack, effort, commitment, youngsters...Happy.

I think thats a pretty fair and balanced assessment Matt. Of course a coach is vital to the success of any team. In fact for any team to be successful everybody has to be on the same page. Part of a coaches job is to ensure the culture and spirit is right. If it isnt unhappy players wont ever perform.

We have to hope once we stop changing half backs weekly and have a more natural full back, which i think Myler is more than Jack in attack, that the attack, game management and last tackle plays will begin to look better than they have understandably so far.

Weve been in most games weve lost even with the teams weve had to put out and lets hope once more bodies return they will help turn narrow losses into wins.

My point is that Agar and Longy are plenty good enough coaches to get thus team flying when we get out best players consistently on the field. We've missed Gale, Walker, Tet, Newman, even Lui....
That's all I'm saying!

Adding Myler + Tetevano should give us so much more already.

Newman due back for Saints, possibly Eastmond too. We're slowly getting our first team out there.

No more injuries please!

bit of an exaggeration but you may have been visiting widnes since o'connor ws 6, they were good , gannon likeliest of young ones to get more game time

think it was very lucky with injuries practically same 17 same substitutions most weeks but don't think any of the signings were fanfare ones. powell and fleary came as a result of keighley going bust. it was short term but great to get a major win after a long time

now who's being hyperbolic nobody said the old girl was perfect just the size and shape meant it will always trump
the new onefor atmosphere . no i don't remember much of the centenary season apart from a lot of kids getting chances ad not many making it, .it wasn't always that full in the 80s 90s, in the 80s pretty much taken over by hull fans

Oh god back to the south stand debate.

I regret bringing it up I really do. Apologies everyone.

Do you think Holbrook would have been as successful coaching Wakey as he was at Saints - not a chance - would Chester have done as well at Saints as Holbrook - not a chance - its a combination - the better the people in the organisation the better the organisation. I know the agent SMTM thinks a club of moneyball players is where it is at - but the best teams have the best players, coaches, conditioners and management. A club is only as strong as its weakest link.

Yes it is a system. This is why the ongoing criticism of Brian Mac annoys me - sure a bit of a marmite character but he got results out of that team and we were tough. I liked him.

Then again most of the successful side were at or close to international quality and I probably could have coached them to some victories...

Then there are the specialist coaches, nutritionists, conditioners, facilities... so many factors contribute to success at an elite level. Luck too. Nobody would watch sport if every result was a foregone conclusion and every game decided on paper.

Been said elsewhere but Leeds need one or two inspirational signings to kick us into the contender pool again. I think the club get this and that we will make a real tilt at the title next year.