No you don't.
But you may have a lifetime contract such as the one I have with DWP.
Sadly it's not perpetual.
Well, sadly for me at least, if nobody else.

All I have done is pitched my positive judgement of the coach against your negative judgement. And history has shown who made the right call.

With regard to the introduction of young players there is nothing puzzling about it. The coaches have proven that they will introduce youngsters but only when they (and thank goodness not you) think they are ready to step up to SL.

Which coaches "proved" this? And isn't the point here about comparison to what other coaches would do, not supporters?

I have no problems about my own negative views at that moment in time they were more than valid given what id watched and the performances of that time.
Also lets not get too giddy JC he along with the team should be more consistent in terms of competing in regular SL rounds and the rotation policy was found wanting more than once.
Of course im chuffed we have had the success but that doesnt mean we shouldnt strive for better and im happy i was wrong re-sacking him because ultimately that means we tasted some great success under his tenure.
He does have some big challenges inbound with our Props and IF he sees out the next 2/3 years the inevitable departures of Sinfield et al.

Carl Ablett.

2004 1 sub appearance. 2005 5 appearances for London on loan. 2006 6 sub appearances. 2007 13 sub appearances. It was 2008 at 23 yrs of age that Ablett became a 1st team regular. A patient approach that has more than paid off.

Danny McGuire

2001 2 sub appearances. 2002 8 sub appearances and 1 start. 2003 at 21 years of age he becomes a 1st team regular.

Kevin Sinfield

1997 2 sub appearances. 1998 2 sub appearances. 1999 he becomes a 1st team regular at 19 though most of his appearances were from the bench.

Now, McGuire and Sinfield are once in a generation players but both were handled with patience and in a manner that the club has continued to practice with all of it's juniors.

In fact, the club is doing exactly the opposite of what you say. Stevie Ward was given more games last year at 18 years of age than Sinfield, Ablett and McGuire got collectively in their debut seasons. Watkins got 5 games in his first year and 14 in his second.

I'm not entirely sure what your point is. That probably makes two of us.

...make that 3 of us. Some good points there.

My comment was in reply to a specific point made by nantwich who was "puzzed" that certain players where not given enough chances. As BM has given several other young players a regular place it would suggest he considers nantwich's selections not yet ready for the step up.

I am not interested in speculating on what other coaches may or may not do because as the coach of twice running SL Champions and World Club Champions he has rather proven his credentials and management rather well.

You said.....
[i"He can't move away from what we currently have. Or at least it appears that way".[/i
....which is not correct as he has given regular spots to the ones I mentioned.

To suggest replacing our best and Champion players for some promising juniors is not the way to win trophies. Having said that I am sure BM will give the best youngsters a chance when he is sure they are ready.

Nice to see you have come around to realising we have got a very good coach.



We all watch and form different views and judgements. If getting the call right about our coach equates to being giddy what does getting the call wrong equate to?

I am sure BM will be planning to get more consistency this season and I feel sure he can achieve it. (I have tipped us for a top of table finish)

I have to admit in his first season I wasn't a big fan and was fairly vocal in my critisism of our coach, ending up with egg on my face! Last year and learnt my lesson and gave him the chance he deserved. Yes week in week out form was scratchy but we got the only thing that matters, trophy's and finals.
I have actually grown to like McDermott. And judging by Fridays game can see weekly form improving.
I am friends with one of our pack and he tells me they try there best every week last year but sometimes they were just knackered.

Which goes along with my own experiences from when I competed. I was in the GB team and it was all about tapering at certain times to be at your peak when in mattered. At regional level I was sometimes being beat by people who shouldn't have been beating me. But I was in heavy training and peaked at internationals when it matters.
Something Leeds have done very well at over the last few years

McDermott is worthy of some respect....but please don't ever make the mistake of revering somebody with an extreme of blind faith: believe me it's not healthy

To be honest, I wasn't keen on him in his first season. He seemed awkward in interviews, came out with strange comments, played with rubber gloves and stood over at the floodlight at Odsal.

But I thought his post match interview after Wembley 2011 when he passionately defended the players he really started to grow on me. He's seems more relaxed in interviews and seems to have a decent dry sense of humour at times.

The only time since then I went a bit back on my opinion of him was when he criticised the players for the home loss to Saints last year. They were plenty of games when the players were to blame but on this occasion when he failed to bring Lunt on and gave Griffin and Clarkson small cameos I think he really dropped the ball trying to win a game with only 14 men.

And that is really my only lasting niggle with McDermott, his use of the subs bench. He got it wrong way too many times last year, both Lunt and Clarkson showed what they could do when given decent time against Catalans and Wigan in the playoffs off the bench, but too often subs are limited to very small minutes.

I'm quite happy that he usually picks what he believes to be his strongest 17, i'd rather see that than be at Warrington watching a team missing 4,5,6 first teamers who have been rested, especially when the reason for resting them (saving them for a possible GF appearance) didn't pay off.

Not sure what you are trying to demonstrate here, or which point you are making. Assuming your facts are correct, you have just backed up my point exactly, so thank you.

In fact you went further, by even showing in the one post, the alarming shift in the development stages of academy products at the club over the years.

Could I also ask why your facts were not extended? What about Burrow, Calderwood, Bailey, Diskin, Morley, Ward, Scruton? we could go on, but you know the players yourself.

To emphasise my point again, the key is to give players opportunities early in career to understand what they need to work on further, and to give them the further focus of taking over those shirts.

An important point to note is that when the current crop were coming through Leeds weren't all that great. The juniors over more recent years are trying to take the place of very successful players yet they're still coming through and getting opportunities, non more than ward at 18 years of age.

I cannot believe the development of academy players would be a concern for any knowledgable Leeds fan. Yes if Sinfield hadn't had any opportunities before he was 20 another club may have tried to lure him, but he was, because he was deemed ready, and that's the point! He also went on to prove he's a bit of a one off.

Once again your judgement is impaired. My consistent comments were made in response to unfair, ill-judged and negative postings regarding our coach. This was about rugby acumen and nothing to do with blind faith.

That you are talking nonsense.

The club handled Sinfield the same way they are handling Ward. The club are handling juniors now the same way they have for 15 years. Juniors now get as many 1st team opportunities as they always have.

And yet the facts, and the facts that you actually produced, show differently.

This isn't 2001 Gotcha.

The first team at Leeds Rhinos is not full of ageing, injury prone has beens or never weres. The club is not short of cash to fill any gaps that it has in its first team squad with quality from outside.

It is going to be much, much harder for young players to break into the current Champion squad than it was when the likes of McGuire, Sinfield et al did so. Only the very cream of the crop is going to get through, like Watkins, Ward, Jones Bishop etc have done.

Some are going to fall by the wayside and make decent careers for themselves elsewhere in SL, but up to now the current regime have shown a pretty good grasp of who is ready to make that breakthrough and when.

Agreed. The situation is different in that you have a better team to break into. That is non debatable.

The issue is though how do we know we don't have better if they are not given the shot to show? Then they can improve if needed on what they need to




Agree again in part on the first sentence. Disagree on the second sentence. Watkins and Jones Bishop are not the same as Ward. Those players were already playing before the current management team. I am not even convinced that Jones Bishop is a "cream of the crop", but mearly got his opportunity in a position he was not planned for and the club saw no need to see alternative replacement.

Going back to the in part bit of the first paragraph. Whilst we have a stronger team than when we had the big influx 10 years ago, that influx is also getting on, which highlights a definate need to succession plan.'"

Like others have said you've got to consider the strength of the team at the time each player came through and the circumstances.

McGuire - We had lost Harris and Ben Walker failed.
Diskin - Newton and Jackson had left in recent seasons, replacement Robbie Mears suffered some injuries and left after 1 year.
Calderwood - Nobody had nailed down the right wing spot for a while a Leeds. Rivett and Sterling had both left. Chev Walker played there but moved to centre when Tonie Carroll left.
JJB - With Morley having departed that left the likes of Hay, Farrell, Clyde, Barnhill at second row. And even then he found himself playing a bit of prop when we brought in the likes of Furner, Poching, Adamson and McKenna (eventually) to the back row.
Sinfield - Had to bide his time too, Glanville was starting 13 around '99. And it's crazy to think that Andy Hay was selected at 13 in the 2000 CC Final.
Danny Ward & Bailey - By the time we reached 2003 we had McDermott, Wayne McDonald and Chris Feather at prop, it's no surprise they got chances.
Burrow - Sheridan had left but at times Burrow still had to start on the bench when we brought in Dunemann.

More recently
Ablett - by the time he came through we had Eliis, Ali and JJB at second row. His real break in the team came when Toopi got injured and he spent most of 2008 at centre. Got another break in 2009 when Eastwood couldn't come over.
Smith - Got his chance when both Calderwood and Bai decided to depart Headingley.
Hall - Toopi's departure meant we could shift Smith to centre to play Hall at wing.
Hardaker - Got his break at centre through Senior's injury, got another break at fullback when Webb got injured.

The only real occasion I can think of when someone burst into the team when we already had good quality there was when Mathers displaced Gary Connelly at fullback.

So even back then we had the likes of Burrow, Bailey & JJB after making the team then being held up again by the signings of the likes of Dunemann, Leuluai, Peacock, Ali & Ellis. We even released players like Pratt in favour of Bai. Some of the departures like Harris, Morley, Glanville, Carroll, Mears, Calderwood, Chev Walker, Lee Smith weren't made because the club wanted rid of those players.....but in turn it always opens a door for another. The difference being we don't have many players wanting to leave the club nowadays, recent departures like Senior and Webb not because they wanted to but the club took the gamble (both times) on a young player, Hardaker, filling the boots and shirt number.

So no, young Academy players didn't have it easy then too. Just a combination of player departures, disappointing Aussies signings, injuries and even Visa hold-ups all helped along the way.

The way we get the young lads opportunities is by giving them a taste of first team rugby, let them get regular open age rugby in a lower division, then let them play for a lower SL team when ready.
Didn't McGuire, Mathers, Scruton, Burgess, Ablett, Jones-Bishop all spend time on loan at other clubs?

Keep them in and around the Leeds first team, but let them get rugby experience, and let them make their mistakes for other teams. When they're ready bring them back in.

Gotcha, are you saying that juniors now don't get the same opportunities in the 1st team that Mcguire, Sinfield et al did or are you saying current juniors get more opportunities now?

Because I thought you were saying the current cop get fewer opportunities. I thought I had demonstrated that wasn't the case, comparing, say, Kevin Sinfield with Stevie Ward. Ward came into a champion team and made 11 1st team appearances in that team. Kevin came into a poor, poor team and got 2 appearances in his debut year.

If I've mnis-construed your point and you agree juniors are given more chances now, I apologise. If you're knitting fog then normal service is resumed.

When looking at the two players mentioned and using their age as a comparison - rather than debut seasons - then Sinfield's equivalent to Ward's 2012 would be 1999.

Both were very close to the same age - 18 and four months - within a matter of a few days apart. Both made an identicle 21 appearances in the 1st grade in those respective seasons.

That would suggest the fomula remains fairly consistent although the sample size may need expanding further.

The simple answer to this debate can be found by trying to name a list of Juniors that have left the club in recent years that in hindsight we should have kept. I can think of no real 'clangers' the club has made.
Luke Burgess could be argued at a push, but in reality, I think he'd have gone regardless of how Leeds looked after him. People sometimes mention Broughton or Scruton (and his leaving was more about money than lack of opportunities), but both of these are a matter of opinion and not cut and dried 'mistakes' and neither have ripped up trees since leaving.
The truth is, the club handle bringing in the juniors exceptionally well, better than any other club arguably in the world - I just can't see why people have any grounds whatsoever to moan about this.

Re the pre-season games, it should also be remembered that we have the WCC coming up very soon. As with last year the aim would have been to hit the ground running at the start of the season for that reason (I'm not overfussed myself but the club and players clearly think its important). Even a team as reasonably unchanging as Leeds over the last few years would need to play together to blow away the cobwebs.

McDermott seems to be growing into the role, but I don't think anyone should believe that the regular seasons under his charge to date have been planned. GH was clearly not happy at times in both 2011 and 2012. The comments made by players suggest that they are at least paying lip service to the need for better showings mid-season. It will certainly be interesting to see if they play consistently better more often this year.

As Grand Final winners every opponent raises their game against us. Particularly those who aspire to emulate us - Wigan, Saints, Wolves for instance. Plus all our locla rivals - the Bulls, Cas, Wakey & the Giants.
So to my mind it's hardly surprising that we can't play at the top of our form for 27 weekly rounds, cup games and the play offs.
I doubt it's down to lack of effort on the players' part or that of the coaching staff.