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| Quote ="nantwichexile"Maybe ,....but there seems to be a growing realisation of what demons have been unleashed....and there is a growing online petition at about 3 million now....and growing by the minute. Just saying again like.'"
Of course there is, there would have been one from the brexit camp were they the wrong side of the 50% mark as the arogant establishment expected, however brexiters would immediately be told to pipe down and accept the 'once in a generation' vote which was made clear before Thursday many times by cameron and the eu top brass. just saying like.
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| Nantwich appears to have blown a fuse. Conspiracy theories, left wing rumours, failure to accept democracy, mind reading what the key players are thinking, banning pensioners from voting, having other referendums until the remainers win!
IMO Cameron's decision to resign was correct as having talked up a post Brexit economic disaster he bears some responsibilty for markets being jittery and his position is untenable. However I think his wanting to stay until the party conference is more about trying to stop Boris from replacing him so I think he should go sooner as he will be something of a lame duck now.
The new PM should be from the Brexit camp as the rest of the Remainers are not comitted to the cause or like May put their careers over their principles. The new PM will then trigger article 50 when they are good and ready and this should be made clear to the demanding Eurocrats. There is no requirement to envoke this immediately.
We have just had a democratic referendum and a winner has been declared. For the sore losers to demand another one because they didn't win shows a worrying lack of respect for democracy worthy of the EU itself.
Cameron and the government should have had a plan in place in the event of a Brexit vote and in my view it was arrogant and negligent not have done so. It was the PM and the government who called the referendum not an election so the responsibility for post Brexit cannot be the Leave leaders unless they are given the positions of power. I think therefore that the main offices of state have to change to accomodate the Leavers.
An all party steering group should be formed to include non political professionals to set out the objectives and monitor the negotiations. Our embassies and consulates should be tasked with opening up talks with the key movers in potential export markets outside the EU and this should start straight away.
It is in the interests of both the UK and the EU to work out a fair trading arrangement as we have a unique status as the largest market for the rest of the EU.
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| Nadhim Zahawi MP said on one of the rolling news stations today that in his opinion it will be two years before article 50 was even activated and he is a Tory brexiteer.
So four more years of free movement still on that timetable and four more years before any financial dividend hits the UK treasury.
Drag it out a bit longer and we can have a General Election first with a whole new mandate, which the new Prime Minister might actually welcome.
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| Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are already stalling on Article 50
They aren't in any hurry.
But the EU are. They want the UK out ASAP.
This is all very amusing.
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| Quote ="tvoc"Nadhim Zahawi MP said on one of the rolling news stations today that in his opinion it will be two years before article 50 was even activated and he is a Tory brexiteer.
So four more years of free movement still on that timetable and four more years before any financial dividend hits the UK treasury.
Drag it out a bit longer and we can have a General Election first with a whole new mandate, which the new Prime Minister might actually welcome.'"
It won't go 4 years the EU will not allow it - and if Scotland gets independence then the Labour has no chance of getting elected.
FWIW I don't think Boris will be the next PM it will be either May or Gove.
Corbyn is unelectable on one point alone - Nuclear disarmament - you can't have the main man who would not press the button.
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| Quote ="Biff Tannen"Of course there is, there would have been one from the brexit camp were they the wrong side of the 50% mark as the arogant establishment expected, however brexiters would immediately be told to pipe down and accept the 'once in a generation' vote which was made clear before Thursday many times by cameron and the eu top brass. just saying like.'"
But that vote was made by people based on lies peddled to them, which is now becoming more and more clear. I have the utmost respect for those that based their vote on something other than immigration, whether I agree or not. But many millions voted purely on the immigration lies, which is coming across quite clear now is not going to change. Those people should have a right to be asked how they now feel.
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| Quote ="Gotcha"But that vote was made by people based on lies peddled to them, .'"
The lies told by the Remain camp are as numerous and more profound and watching them frantically back peddling on their gloom (Andrew Marr is currently roasting one on a spit as I type) is far more telling than Polly Toynbee crying on every TV spot she can find.
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| Quote ="Juan Cornetto"Nantwich appears to have blown a fuse. Conspiracy theories, left wing rumours, failure to accept democracy, mind reading what the key players are thinking, banning pensioners from voting, having other referendums until the remainers win!
IMO Cameron's decision to resign was correct as having talked up a post Brexit economic disaster he bears some responsibilty for markets being jittery and his position is untenable. However I think his wanting to stay until the party conference is more about trying to stop Boris from replacing him so I think he should go sooner as he will be something of a lame duck now.
The new PM should be from the Brexit camp as the rest of the Remainers are not comitted to the cause or like May put their careers over their principles. The new PM will then trigger article 50 when they are good and ready and this should be made clear to the demanding Eurocrats. There is no requirement to envoke this immediately.
We have just had a democratic referendum and a winner has been declared. For the sore losers to demand another one because they didn't win shows a worrying lack of respect for democracy worthy of the EU itself.
Cameron and the government should have had a plan in place in the event of a Brexit vote and in my view it was arrogant and negligent not have done so. It was the PM and the government who called the referendum not an election so the responsibility for post Brexit cannot be the Leave leaders unless they are given the positions of power. I think therefore that the main offices of state have to change to accomodate the Leavers.
An all party steering group should be formed to include non political professionals to set out the objectives and monitor the negotiations. Our embassies and consulates should be tasked with opening up talks with the key movers in potential export markets outside the EU and this should start straight away.
It is in the interests of both the UK and the EU to work out a fair trading arrangement as we have a unique status as the largest market for the rest of the EU.'"
This new PM ...democratically elected or unelected by the people?
Good luck with the cross party steering...i see the Lib Dems are the first to break ranks on that...
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| But isn't the issue more that pretty much everything we were told by both sides was based on guesswork and self interest?
We elect politicians to make decisions for us, but when we get to the biggest decision of (most of) our lifetimes they bicker and leave us to make an ill-informed decision so they don't shoulder any blame. Dereliction of duty, no more, no less.
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| Quote ="Gotcha" But many millions voted purely on the immigration lies,'"
My God, how did you manage to ring/canvass all those millions so quickly in order to formulate your opinion?
If you are basing your (undemocratic) call for a second referendum upon the premise that one or both of the protagonists lied about what would happen post-vote, then I would suggest that every General Election ever fought needs to be annulled.
What I suspect is more the case is that this is another cry-baby, self-pitying, sore loser, anti-democratic, clutching-at-straws "attempt" to control the masses of the UK public by telling them that they are not clever enough to formulate their own opinion. No wonder you crave the warm bosom of the unelected Eurocrats - they really do know how to control.
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| The arrogance of the left raises its ugly head once again - David Lammy suggesting Parliament should just ignore the vote!! You couldn't make it up.
I expected to wake up on Friday with people pushing money round in wheelbarrows and my house to have no value - that is what remain suggested would happen. Nobody lied more than the remain campaign - only a fool would suggest otherwise
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| Quote ="Gotcha"But that vote was made by people based on lies peddled to them, which is now becoming more and more clear. I have the utmost respect for those that based their vote on something other than immigration, whether I agree or not. But many millions voted purely on the immigration lies, which is coming across quite clear now is not going to change. Those people should have a right to be asked how they now feel.'"
so the several million on the petition are all out voters from thursdays election? i didn't realise.
I, as well many millions i suspect,voted out because of many other reasons regards a failing EU other than immigration yet it seems that can't be accepted by many unhappy with the result.
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| Quote ="HRS Rhino"But isn't the issue more that pretty much everything we were told by both sides was based on guesswork and self interest?
We elect politicians to make decisions for us, but when we get to the biggest decision of (most of) our lifetimes they bicker and leave us to make an ill-informed decision so they don't shoulder any blame. Dereliction of duty, no more, no less.'"
The EU referendum was in the Tory manifesto. If "the people" really didn't want one then it's obvious what they should have done. This government was elected partly because it would give the country a chance to choose regarding the EU. If young people really didn't want to leave the EU then maybe the 60% of them that can't be bothered to vote should have made their way to a polling station.
Just a thought.
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| Quote ="son of headingley"My God, how did you manage to ring/canvass all those millions so quickly in order to formulate your opinion?
If you are basing your (undemocratic) call for a second referendum upon the premise that one or both of the protagonists lied about what would happen post-vote, then I would suggest that every General Election ever fought needs to be annulled.
What I suspect is more the case is that this is another cry-baby, self-pitying, sore loser, anti-democratic, clutching-at-straws "attempt" to control the masses of the UK public by telling them that they are not clever enough to formulate their own opinion. No wonder you crave the warm bosom of the unelected Eurocrats - they really do know how to control.'"
Come on we all know many did vote leave on the immigration issue...and nothing else. Many heard the very clever effective mantra take back control repeated many times in debates and was all they heard...thinking it meant stopping EU migration. That was lie number two exposed on day 1 by Daniel Hannan.
Of course there was also attempted deception by the remain side culminating in the pathetic Osborne threatened emergency budget.
But this is not like a general election where things can be theoretically changed after five years when people see the effects of their vote. Unlikely though with our very democratic FPTP system and labour condemned to obscurity because of SNP taking Scotland and a leader who unfortunately fails to inspire.
It has been a dereliction of duty by politicians and the media especially the tabloids.
Did those here in favour of Brexit forsee the destruction of the UK in the form of Scotland Ireland and Gibraltar all anxiously eyeing the future? The time effort and money in just dealing with these issues is huge..unwinding 43 years of intrinsically linked legislation...new trade deals...all under massive pressure to be a priority. Cornwall Wales Hartlepool will be at the back of the queue. Those people least equipped for the "bumps in the road" are going to be very disappointed when the land of milk and honey does not flow their way despite their "win"
I read now the major car manufactures are looking at moving production away from UK. No more investment in favour of plants that will remain inside free trade area. Airbus too. The banks. What exactly is going to replace all this? It was all predicted mind by the experts who we were encouraged to ignore by Gove. Not sure where that might put future governments acting on expert advice...
Is all this worthwhile ? For what exactly again? Please remind me. Better democracy? Was that it? A fanciful promise of better trade deals elsewhere? When exactly? With what will we be trading?
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| One more before I leave this, anyone thinking a Leave vote is responsible for the SNP deciding to go for another referendum on independence should know they were always going to do it the moment they thought they could win, it's in bold black and white in their 2016 manifesto. A key pledge made to their supporters. They were always going.
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| I still consider the whole situation to be an utter shambles. The leave campaign won so why the reluctance to press the self-destruct button and invoke the leave notice.
Are they finally waking up to the disaster which seems to be unfolding. Hannan claims freedom of movement will continue, Farage admits the 350 million will not go to the NHS . Also he claims what looks like a coming recession won't be down to brexit it's down to a world wide slow down.
Both Johnson and Goves body language hardly look like they have won. A ukip spokesman claims that when we are out of the EU the rump of the ukip party will be absorbed into the Tory party. Good luck with that.
The Tory party is torn apart, the Labour Party is in turmoil. The EU quite rightly has had enough and is literally telling us to push off.
As I remarked before an utter shambles.
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| Quote ="William Eve"Boris Johnson and Michael Gove are already stalling on Article 50
They aren't in any hurry.
But the EU are. They want the UK out ASAP.
This is all very amusing.'"
You didn't even vote.
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| Quote ="FlexWheeler"You didn't even vote.'"
I counted them in return for £110
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| Quote ="William Eve"I counted them in return for £110
'"
Rubbing your hands together at the idea of a re-do then.
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| Quote ="Barrie's Glass Eye"Rubbing your hands together at the idea of a re-do then.'"
There'll probably be another General Election before then... November is my guess.
Count me in for the counting again
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| Quote ="DHM"One more before I leave this, anyone thinking a Leave vote is responsible for the SNP deciding to go for another referendum on independence should know they were always going to do it the moment they thought they could win, it's in bold black and white in their 2016 manifesto. A key pledge made to their supporters. They were always going.'"
The terminology in the manifesto is very clear:
We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – [ior if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.[/i
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| Quote ="Clearwing"The terminology in the manifesto is very clear:
We believe that the Scottish Parliament should have the right to hold another referendum if there is clear and sustained evidence that independence has become the preferred option of a majority of the Scottish people – [ior if there is a significant and material change in the circumstances that prevailed in 2014, such as Scotland being taken out of the EU against our will.[/i'"
Yep. The first part "significant and material change" is the gun they have been holding since the referendum defeat. It could be made to apply to pretty much anything they don't like. Sturgeon actually said on Friday during her big statement that they were planning to have another referendum but the EU vote has "accelerated" the process. They were already looking at around 4 years down the road, now they have moved that forward. They were going to call for one anyway, the first moment they thought they could win - no matter what. T
Actually this is fairly catastrophic for them. Previously they were looking at the mechanism for a EU member country splitting and both staying in the EU. Tricky, but not a huge obstacle. What they are faced with now (as it would take around 2 years to plan and hold the referendum - if the UK parliament agrees to it ) is the prospect of being already outside the EU, trying to get back in, put up a full border, trying to enter the Euro and that's all if the EU will have them. With the oil price collapse they are going to be potentially relying on EU money to stay solvent. Will the EU actually want them?
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| Quote ="DHM"Yep. The first part "significant and material change" is the gun they have been holding since the referendum defeat. It could be made to apply to pretty much anything they don't like. Sturgeon actually said on Friday during her big statement that they were planning to have another referendum but the EU vote has "accelerated" the process. They were already looking at around 4 years down the road, now they have moved that forward. They were going to call for one anyway, the first moment they thought they could win - no matter what. T
Actually this is fairly catastrophic for them. Previously they were looking at the mechanism for a EU member country splitting and both staying in the EU. Tricky, but not a huge obstacle. What they are faced with now (as it would take around 2 years to plan and hold the referendum - if the UK parliament agrees to it ) is the prospect of being already outside the EU, trying to get back in, put up a full border, trying to enter the Euro and that's all if the EU will have them. With the oil price collapse they are going to be potentially relying on EU money to stay solvent. Will the EU actually want them?'"
The EU seems to want the Balkan countries !!!? I genuinely don't know, but I suspect their economies are hardly better than those relative to Scotland. It would be a sweet taste of political revenge for the EU to help break up the UK (if the EU doesn't break up first of course)
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| Quote ="nantwichexile"The EU seems to want the Balkan countries !!!? I genuinely don't know, but I suspect their economies are hardly better than those relative to Scotland. It would be a sweet taste of political revenge for the EU to help break up the UK (if the EU doesn't break up first of course)'"
To repeat, the SNP were already planning to leave the UK as soon as they thought they could win a referendum - it says so in their manifesto. The EU vote was irrelevant, all it did was change the timing slightly. This isn't me speculating, Sturgeon said it on Friday on TV - she said they were planning on 4 years, now they are bringing it forward, but it's still going to take them 2 and that's if any UK government isn't too busy to say yes.
Have you heard the noises the SNP are making about opposing the referendum result in parliament now? They confirm my thoughts that this is a disaster for them and their ultimate goal of breaking up the UK on their terms.
To repeat, yet again, it's fundamental to the SNP to break up the UK. The sheer bloody cheek of them to blame anyone or anything else is beyond belief.
And as for the EU "revenge" theory, don't be soft. With one of their big net contributers leaving do they really want another bill? The Balkans was empire building, expanding borders. None of that applies to Scotland. And the last EU expansion happened before the Euro crisis, before Greece. It's a very different environment now for new.
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| Quote ="William Eve"There'll probably be another General Election before then... November is my guess.
Count me in for the counting again
'"
Who is going to "compete" in this? I'll have to run myself just to have someone to vote for.
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