Welsby was the difference IMO. Maybe we should turn Newman into a FB to get more out of him.

Our forwards should have ripped into Saints and set a platform but it didn't happen. With their big men missing you have to wonder why we didn't do better with three props on the bench.

That aside, Saints weren't all that hot apart from a couple of good lines from Welsby. We seem to be missing that extra bit of strike to finish off some of these close games.

Well RS has done it again - we had a new tactic last night . Following on from the list of failed tactics from RS - passive defence , no line speed , messing up the hooking position , playing players in the wrong position, being unable to get our kickers to kick consistently on the 5th tackle etc , he came up with an absolute belter last night - The PASSIVE ATTACK !!
We line up across the field and all stand flat footed ( do not run onto the ball ) and pass the ball across the field and the final player to get the ball gets crunched - what a genius.
Against a Sts team there for the taking , he finds a way for us to lose again.
The only thing left is for RS to get a Non Passive kick up the as he collects his P45 on Monday morning .

Couldn't agree more, frustrates me every time we do it, havnt yet seen anything positive come from doing it, bizarre

It’s to get the ball to the middle of the pitch and to test the defender split either side of the PTB, something most teams do. obviously better if the passing is accurate and someone’s running onto it

It’s crazy that you and probably others think Smith is telling the players to not run with intensity

this isn’t something you need to coach either, it’s basic rugby, I’d put this on the players

I’d also put most of it on the players, they are individually responsible for it. Collectively, and over time, it’s the coach that is responsible as he sets the acceptable standards and has to get players to perform or they are replaced. Smith is far from solely to blame, but he’s not without blame either.

And yet he is still preparing a squad which he mostly inherited and wasn’t performing well enough previously.

He has added MacDonald, McDonnell as first team players and they are good - without having much room at all on the cap.

We have also moved on some dead wood under him which we needed to do.

I want to see him sweep more away this year and really start to stamp his mark on the side / then we can judge better.

And he got those standard against Wire and Hudds, and I’m sure he won’t be happy that they dropped the standards last night.

Who do you replace them with tho? Donaldson? Academy players? Are they ready to step up? We don’t seem to have much strength in depth

The “they’re not ready” line is a bit of a nonsense to me. No player who has debuted has ever been ready, they will make mistakes but will develop faster with first team exposure than without. Perhaps more importantly it’s critical to signal to those who under perform that they don’t have any pressure on them. Can you imagine if a senior player is serially underperforming and is replaced for a game or two by a kid, is there a better way to kick them up the butt and let everyone know that they haven’t been achieving the required levels?

I agree but Saints were there for the taking. Smith and O’Connor were very poor.

Throwing in kids isn’t always the best option tho, especially in the forwards, I know nothing about the academy team and who the next in line would be but chucking in a 17 year old prop just because he’s next in line who’s never played against grown men is irresponsible and can do a lot more harm than good.

I agree players should be dropped if constantly under performing

We’re pretty much in agreement there, you need to handle kids carefully, but a week or two in the front line can be worth months in the Academy, as long as they can take it physically.

Second game running O`Connor has had a bad day at the office.
I might be wrong but I do think we are flogging him too hard and getting him to play too many minutes.
Maybe the guy needs a break to recharge?
Likewise Smith has played well for the majority of games this season.
But because the halves fail to take control of the game again imo Smith might just feel he has to do the controlling and ends up stifling the play.
Our forwards were nowhere near as intent as Lees was for Saints last night.
We are very powder puff in the collision.

Kicking up the butt isn't the Leeds way these days. Can you imagine the sparks that would have flown in a dressing room containing JP, kev, Danny Mags if they'd been playing how we have this year? Or saints? Incoming signings must wonder what they've walked into these days. Still, at least we bring through some well mannered young men.

Issues for me are:
We lack x factor. Our one exciting option is injured 50% of the time
We are the best resources club in the country. Somehow we can't utilise that in the squad.
Our halfbacks are at best inconsistent. Austin was on fire a couple of weeks ago, and awful this week. Sezer as the organiser is invisible almost every week. Myler is solid but no xfactor. Most teams most impactful player these days is the fullback

As a club we always do our announcements late in the season, and with most of our business done behind closed doors, when times are tough it looks like we don't have a plan. Sometimes it's because we don't, sometimes it just hasn't been announced.

I think it was mentioned earlier, as a club we don't seem desperate for success. That may not be true on the inside, but I agree as an outsider

Additionally, most accept that our best time as a club recently was based in solid home grown players and complemented with some seasoned pros. That model doesn't happen overnight. It takes time. I believe that Rohan Smith is here for a long-term overhaul. He's needed to do some surgery in the short term to steady the ship and put foundations in place for us to be strong long term. Growing pains for the likes of Newman, O'Connor and Gannon will happen. Players like Walters will always happen. Some clubs will be willing to pay more for some players than others.

The club may be heading in the right direction long term, and that it's just the results are a lagging indicator of that.

Correct.
You've only got to look at history.
The dominant Wigan, Leeds and now St.Helens sides were all built on a foundation of youth development and having quality home grown products in the key positions.
You've only got to look at Warrington and Hull to know that you just can't buy success.
We are now paying the price for a lack of focus and/or investment in the youth development program.
Some might say that there has been a lack of good young talent around in the area, but there are plenty of good early to mid 20's age players from West Yorkshire doing well at other clubs.
This shows that either we are not quick enough or smart enough to pick this talent up at an early age, or they just don't want to come to Leeds.
Either way, this needs addressing to forge a path back to success.
Otherwise we are competing in mid table with the others desperately looking for NRL cast-offs that we blindly hope are going to be the saviour.
And we're clearly not prepared, or able, to pay transfer fees for the top British talent anymore.
Again, this puts us way behind the big ambitious teams.
Hopefully, some of the young prospects will come through, but I fear another 3-5 years of much the same...

Tell that to Welsby after Lisone took half his ribs out towards the back end of the game.

Might help if some of our signings lived up to expectations. Leigh seemed to have done reasonably well with sensible signings. Also Catalan seem to be astute in the transfer market. If as you suggest that we will bob along mid table for 3 to 5 years that would be a disaster for season ticket sales.
Can’t see caddick allowing that situation to unfold. Some major decisions have to be taken at the season end, first of all the coach, in spite of a poor season I am not certain firing smith will change things. Looking at Leigh it would appear at face value that Lam is a good coach obviously not appreciated in his former position. Maybe a lesson to be learned from that scenario. My main concern is the age of some of our key players I include Myler in that ,whilst he his safe under the high ball he brings very little to our attack. Welsby last week showed what a top full back can produce. We need some support for Conner at hooker, although I am suspicious he may turn out to be another journeyman player. Whilst we don’t know what the situation is ref salary cap nor do we know the situation regarding Walters . Did we do enough to keep him?. Get these major decisions wrong at the season end and we will be mid table for 5 years or more.

You can't buy success (we tried in 90's) but you can buy well enough to give your homegrown talent a chance to succeed. That's what we have to do from both the NRL and SL. I don’t claim to be an expert in judging talent in junior rugby players but of the current academy set up there's only McCormack who looks to have an X factor to me. Sinfield has bags of talent too, but it would be ludicrous to pin too much expectation on him. We have a few other good ones but in my opinion absolutely no guarantees. There is no new golden generation around the corner, so GH and co have to be all over it on all fronts.

Its true that ultimately long term success depends on bringing through quality juniors. But its never been the full story. In 97 when Caddick took over we made some huge signings. Sinfield, Burrow, McGuire and co didn't come into a team full of numpties. We were a team just off being able to win things when they came of age.

What will likely never be repeated is having a batch of hugely talented kids all in the same age group coming through at the same time. If you look around the comp you're lucky to develop 2 quality first grade players out of any particular Academy group. It will take years for even a massive focus on juniors to bear fruit.

That means that signings will continue to be really important, and our record in that regards for years has been generally pretty inept. Big money on players in positions that don't win games, unfit players and players who just didn't want to join the club has happened way too often.

Excellent posting

Absolutely.
It's not only about youth development.
But that's probably the most important of the key ingredients.
Strong youth development program and quality home grown talent in key positions.
Top level British signings e.g. Senior, Peacock, Ellis who can act as leaders.
Complemented with quality O/S players in positions we are short e.g. Buderus, Webb, Lautiti.
Oh, and a good coach helps.....

What you refer to was a tackle made by a prop on a fb around 20+kg lighter than Lisone.
I`m talking about our forwards and props in particular running the ball in.
Not one of ours got anywhere near Lees and their impact in comparison was pitiful.
But yes Lisone did tackle the much lighter fb pretty well.
Shame our props didn`t do the same to the St Helens props on the day.

Yes, IMO the forwards totally failed to dominate, leading to a stalemate that was only broken by an exceptional individual on their side.

Our pack needs to be more ruthless in situations like this. Lisone and Sangare should have been more destructive in stints, and Oledski and Holroyd needed to impose themselves much more without the Saints big men to worry about.

Smith complained about the ruck and interruptions to the game (a consistent gripe with him), but ultimately Leeds need to develop a plan B for these 'scrappy' situations because this seems to be our achilles heel at present.

We have become too much of a 'fair weather' team... You can take this both literally and figuratively!