Hitting up from first receiver too often I imagine. Predictable and it allowed saints to hit our carrier with 3 tacklers simultaneously. Their use of runners was far better

Again I think Hurrell has hardly been fit for a year now.

It's a disgrace this saints team is going to win 3 on the trot. Everyone is so crap, they don't even have to work for it.

Anyone think Cats will beat them?

Saints will probably win three on the trot because they are significantly better than the rest. But anything can happen in a one-off game. Last night the Rhinos were blown away by amazing line speed and group defence right across the park, not just the forwards. Regardless of any creativity in the half’s, if your pack is retreating the game is lost. However, we have much to learn from this season and should look forward to 2022 and beyond with optimism. The additions to the squad will bring more balance and with a bit of luck with injuries we should make a stepped improvement. We have weaknesses in the team and lack of pace in wide areas but we should remain positive moving forward. I feel the future will be good for the Rhinos and I do sense for the competition as whole. We will not be the only team making a major improvement in 2022.

Really hope not.
I know it means 3 on the bounce for Saints, but prefer that to a Cats win.
Can't have the Tompkins and MciLorum grubs winning the GF.
Horrible team Cats.

So just like 2006 then

If Saints do win the Grand Final there is an arguement that they are the best team we've ever had. I'm not sure any team of the Super League past could cope with the intensity and defense this side has. The line speed and aggression is frightening.

Let’s not get carried away with this saints side. They have been fabulous this season and I have praised them for this season’s efforts.
Reluctantly I have to point out the standard of the teams in super league this season have been dire. That’s helped them enormously, perhaps I may be biased but the best Leeds team with peacock, sinfield,McGuire, burrow etc etc wouldn’t have a problem beating the current saints side.

Agreed. One thing you can say about this Saints team is they don’t work hard.

Makes me chuckle when people say this Saints would get well beaten against teams of yore. Jeez the line speed they showed on Fri was way in advance of anything the goldens ever faced. Absolutely magnificent.

Yeah the standard of Super League opposition is nothing compared to the magnificent Crusaders team we beat 68-0 at Rodney Parade or the truly amazing Widnes teams we used to face in SL. Some of the opposition the goldens faced was poor. Thats not to detract from the great team we had but i guarantee some Wigan used to criticise our team and say they would get murdered against the great Wigan teams of the 80s and 90s. Of course we wouldnt have.

This Saints team is a fine team with no weaknesses really. Look across the Saints team and tell me what you would target? Personally i think they are a terrific team and should be applauded. They could dominate for years yet.

They are a good side, we’ll see if they have it their own way against another physical side in Cats next week.

Saints will be favourites but I don’t think it’s a foregone conclusion.

I actually hope Cats win it, not because I don’t like St Helens but because I think it would be a great shot in the arm for the game. Toulouse may well be coming up and this could be a golden era for French RL. The competition has been quite stale with GF winners let’s face it.

Totally agree. I expect them to win on Saturday, and if they do, I hope they get the NRL champs over early next year. Not saying they would get a win, but they have the style and ferocity to make it difficult for s rusty Aussie team.

Agree that this is an outstanding Saints team in the context of the current competition. Very well coached and certainly the best team the last 3 years. Its very hard to measure greatness as you can only beat whats in front of you. In terms of their grand final wins they have beaten Salford and a Wigan team ( in the last minute) that is been universally slated twelve months later. A win against a very good Catalan team will significantly enhance their reputation. They have also not been tested against a top NRL side.
Are we guilty of thinking the current Leeds team is better than it is and by the nature of that assessment raising the standing of Saints because they are so much better than us. The James Graham/Paul Wellens team that lost a number of fgrand finals was an outstanding team that consistently finished league leaders despite losing one off finals mainly to Leeds. How many leeds players that started on Friday would get into a starting 17 made up of the grand final winning years. I would suggest possibly only Oledski potentially on the bench. Maybe that's a different thread! If Catalans win and do the double are they going to get the respect that they deserve for the outstanding job that McNamara has done?

I agree - this is a very good Saints side.
But for me, the difference is the coaching.
Player for player, on paper, I don't think we're too far off them.
But yes, their line speed, their aggression, their discipline, movement and fitness was a million miles from ours.
Thats' about the coaching.

By the way, I'm not calling for Agar's head. Far from it.
I just think they have very good players, who are superbly coached.

This Saints team is a fine team with no weaknesses really. Look across the Saints team and tell me what you would target? Personally i think they are a terrific team and should be applauded. They could dominate for years yet.'"

Most definitely have a better coach Saints.

It’s interesting you mention our “30 minute lull” as I call it. It’s less to do with Walmsley / Lees off and more to do with them going off with Knowles as well. Knowles leads our defensive line and with the three of them off, Roby does it but is slightly less effective due to his age. It was telling that in the semi final Knowles actually played through to 37 minutes and despite you scoring around then, I don’t think we suffered nearly as much from our usual drop off. Next year though, I think the plan will be to bring a fresh Roby on for Knowles, and play his old high energy high involvement game for 20 minutes (rather than being managed through 80 as he is at the moment), which I think will do a really good job at keeping the pressure up throughout the game. It’s part of the reason I think Lussick will go really well for us.

It’s also interesting you single out Dodd as a defensive weakness. In Fages and Lomax we probably have 2 of the best defensive halves in the comp (if not the best) and we have been playing Dodd at hooker for large parts of this year to really focus on his defence, and a lot of his training has been around defending as well. We didn’t keep Richardson because the club weren’t confident he could pick up the defensive aspect of the game like Dodd can, and I’m comfortable with an off-season he will be in good shape. He’s not perfect yet (it wouldn’t have surprised me if Fages was playing if he had managed to push Luke Briscoe out for your second try for example, which Dodd didn’t manage), but it would surprise me if he’s targeted like you would Richardson for example.

I think Mata’utia had a poor start to the season, which has led to our backrow being a little underrated this year (not helped with Bentley missing 90% of the season, and Thompson being … underwhelming). If Mata’utia plays the whole year like he has since the cup final, he will be a dream team second row next year. The other backrow spots are interesting. Obviously we have signed Sironen as a direct replacement for Thompson, but Batchelor is getting better and every game so who gets the 12 shirt is going to be a bit of a pre season battle. Add in Jamie Bell, (Konrad Hurrell), Jake Wingfield and Matty Foster (who impressed on duel reg at Leigh this year) it’s likely to be one of our most competitive positions next year.

Hopoate for Naiqama is a like for like swap so it’s hard to say if it’s something that should/ could be targeted. What I will say is Naiqamas age is starting to show this year and some of the defensive reads he makes when jumping out the line haven’t been as effective. This is where Catalans targeted in our 5 minute disaster class on MW, so I can actually see Hopoate improving this aspect.

Not really sure where you have seen a weakness in Grace (if anything kicking at Coote is a far more effective strategy this year, he’s dropped a couple cold like the first minute of the semi). I will say it’s the bomb to the centres that seem far more effective against us at the moment (again I think Percival dropped one in the lead up to your second try), and again something Catalans used at MW which I hope we have a strategy for this time.

Ultimately the best way to know how we would do against an NRL side is look to the 2020 WCC where we lost to the Roosters 20-12. It was a game of coulda shoulda woulda for us bombing a few opportunities which could have given us the lead. The team is slightly different now (Luke Thompson was awesome for us that night) but if we were to win it again, i really hope to see another WCC to see how we have progressed.

Very good post and a fair analysis.
I agree that Grace is not the weakness and more pressure should have been put on Dodd.
Unfortunately we were too embroiled in (badly) taking on your forwards who simply outplayed ours in every position.
Looking forward to the final which I would say Saints are slight favourites.

Agree on Knowles, I suppose as an 8,10 and 13 that is as good a group as there is in SL. There is an obvious drop at interchange, I think the plan you mentioned with roby could stop some of that. I am looking at it from an NRL point of view and in particular the world club challenge. I think the Panthers pack is decent and I think from the perspective of where you give over the ball it won’t be as easy to have that intense line speed against them.

It isn’t so much Dodd is poor, rather every team attacks the half backs. One of the best in SL isn’t going to cut it against NRL back row options. For example Kikau is above and beyond anything in SL, Clearly and Luai giving him the ball is above anything going on in SL. Dodd can defend, as can Lomax but if you are putting together a game plan then you target them, make them work and eventually make them bite in and go out the back, To’o on the wing for when that happens.

Depends what you want from your back row, I think there is a lack of quality wide running back rowers, esp is SL. By way of example Bentley and Martin against Mata’utia and Sironen, I don’t think there is much in that personally. I think Bentley is a huge gain for us if he can stay fit and a big loss for Saints, appreciate he has hardly been fit this year.

On Grace i think somebody like To’o completely dominates him physically, i also think he rarely gets peppered with high quality kicks in SL, again clearly kicking is another matter to Lui and Leeming. We all know a good kick comes from good field position and if you can do that against Saints then you make them play differently than how they want to. Coote going may have an impact here, he does a lot of kicking for Saints and directs them incredibly well. To me Welsby is a totally different type of player and if Hopoate is there then you won’t get what you get from Coote.

Hopoate is hot,cold and I am not convinced he will go well for you. I say that from watching a lot of NRL. I think he may play full back with Welsby at Centre but we shall see. Again if he is at centre I think he is who you target. Outside backs in SL are clearly nowhere near the quality of those in the NRL. I like Percival and think despite not being a huge centre he stands up fairly well in D.

Quote ="Lprhino"snip as the quoting seems to have gotten squiffy'" You seem to be picking and choosing players from across the NRL to counter example. Yes, if this Saints side played against the Aussie national team, is fully expect a stuffing … but I also expect that as an England fan! We certainly didn’t disgrace ourselves against the Roosters whom have been there or there abouts in the last two years, and despite the narrative some fans seem to have around Saints not being as good as under Holbrook, I think Woolfs Saints are much more “NRL like” and probably wouldn’t fluff some of the chances we did in that game. Whether that’s enough is another conversation, which is why I say I would really like another shot at the WCC next year if we win next week. I will avoid commenting on the Leeds team too much, but I think there is a big difference between Mata’utia/ Sironen and Martin/ Bentley. Not least, Martin/ Bentley are both primarily right sided second rowers and don’t see eithers game translating particularly well to the left side of the field (though could easily be wrong). I said my piece on Bentley when the rumours first arose about him moving (really excellent defender and lots of industry (second best behind Knowles at Saints), but limited in attack and haven’t seen much line running from him in his time at Saints…), and whilst I quite like Martin, he was outplayed by Mata’utia and Batchelor. If Sironen is a hit (as a 17st, 6ft5 wider running backrower should) he will offer us more overall. I’m not sure how Bentley can be a big loss for us, given we have played without him for basically the whole year already? I’m don’t think he would have been the difference in any of the games we lost this year which is surely the measure of “missing” someone? Welsby will be fullback next year, it was already announced by Woolf (https://www.saintsrlfc.com/2021/07/29/w ... k-in-2022/) and if Hopoate doesn’t perform (and I trust Woolf to have the best chance of having him perform) then Hurrell, Simm or Shay Martyn take his place - that’s not bad depth …

Quote ="Lprhino"snip as the quoting seems to have gotten squiffy'" You seem to be picking and choosing players from across the NRL to counter example. Yes, if this Saints side played against the Aussie national team, is fully expect a stuffing … but I also expect that as an England fan! We certainly didn’t disgrace ourselves against the Roosters whom have been there or there abouts in the last two years, and despite the narrative some fans seem to have around Saints not being as good as under Holbrook, I think Woolfs Saints are much more “NRL like” and probably wouldn’t fluff some of the chances we did in that game. Whether that’s enough is another conversation, which is why I say I would really like another shot at the WCC next year if we win next week. I will avoid commenting on the Leeds team too much, but I think there is a big difference between Mata’utia/ Sironen and Martin/ Bentley. Not least, Martin/ Bentley are both primarily right sided second rowers and don’t see eithers game translating particularly well to the left side of the field (though could easily be wrong). I said my piece on Bentley when the rumours first arose about him moving (really excellent defender and lots of industry (second best behind Knowles at Saints), but limited in attack and haven’t seen much line running from him in his time at Saints…), and whilst I quite like Martin, he was outplayed by Mata’utia and Batchelor. If Sironen is a hit (as a 17st, 6ft5 wider running backrower should) he will offer us more overall. I’m not sure how Bentley can be a big loss for us, given we have played without him for basically the whole year already? I’m don’t think he would have been the difference in any of the games we lost this year which is surely the measure of “missing” someone? Welsby will be fullback next year, it was already announced by Woolf (https://www.saintsrlfc.com/2021/07/29/w ... k-in-2022/) and if Hopoate doesn’t perform (and I trust Woolf to have the best chance of having him perform) then Hurrell, Simm or Shay Martyn take his place - that’s not bad depth …

Our spine is completely busted. Miracle we got to semi. Pointless comparing us to a fully fit Saints

Think it’s all been said really.
On the way out my son asked me was it like that when Wigan won everything ?
I thought for a few seconds and said yes, because you knew they would win every big game and the gap would sometimes get a bit smaller but was generally massive.
Saints deserve great credit to do that in the salary cap era.
Wigan were a great side but even as a callow youth I knew signing Ellery, Andy Gregory, Lydon, goodway, Platt, Connolly etc etc was a good idea.

As Nicky Kiss said other teams don’t have the same intensity. I think Woolf has made them more conservative than Holbrook but it’s brutally effective.
The thing that depressed me was in addition to the gap in intensity (appreciate some of this list is based on intensity) was line speed in defence, how fast they run onto the ball, chasing from marker to leg tackle our props, accuracy of passing, numbers in motion, kick chase, handling skills and to my eye conditioning.

I think next year they will be even stronger.

Since 2015, we’ve succumbed to the idea behind the salary cap, the theory of an equal competition. We like many other sides have a mix of talent with some real tripe included. We’ve overloaded on tripe.

However, to date saints have resisted this descent into mediocrity and I can’t see it coming yet. Cleverly signing Lussick before Roby’s legs go the way of his hair.