I agree about Keinhorst, a much better centre than Sutcliffe. It seems to me that nobody wants to lose face at HQ after everyone tipping him to be the next Sir Kevin but unfortunately every position he's been tried in he's not been able to hold his place. Jimmy is far ball in hand and he does put some grunt into his tackling. Sutcliffe seems a nice lad but thats probably his biggest problem

i am a fan of sutcliffe but he is starting to look like a bit of a dud, as you say does not look really strong in any position, looking like a lee Gaskel type player. possible an average super league player but could be great at championship. hope i am wrong, but he is not living up to his early potential at all. so for me on current form it has to be Jimmy sutcliffe on bench and have to fight for his place back. which might be a good thing might be the kick up he needs.

Sutcliffe’s still relatively inexperienced in terms of appearances. I think he’s a decent member of your squad. Surely competition for places is good? While he and Keinhorst battle it out it’s better for the team. I think it’s early to be saying either of them are duds. You can’t have superstars in every position nowadays.

I like Keinhorst because he looks like he has a rugby brain. He's like the opposite of Walters.

I also like Sutcliffe too, and I think some of the criticism of him is ridiculous. Until the end of last season when he played a few in a row he's hardly played centre at all, and not at all consistently. As it is he did a pretty good job there in both the play off vs Hull and the GF.

Also we have a number of forwards at the back end of their careers. I'd rather keep both of these two around than sign someone just for the sake of it if as expected we lose at least one if not two to retirement at the end of the year.

I still think Sutcliffe's best chance of success is at 6. He's not tough enough for the pack. But he needs to learn his trade, probably as a centre or FB (though there's too much competition there), before tying down a SO spot. John Holmes, Hanley, John Joyner, Schofield all did that.

That's really stretching it to put him in the company of those individuals. No where near that level in any role. He isn't a 6, and constantly shown that. Said it before and he is a carbon copy of Gaskill at Huddersfield. If people find Gaskill level good enough, so be it, but that is the level of ability of Sutcliffe.

Think he'll make a decent centre given the opportunity.

I never said he was.

I never rated Sutcliffe until he was moved to centre and I think, given time and more aggression, he has potential in that position.
However, I've always rated Jimmy nomatter where he was asked to play. He always gives 100% and I can't remember him ever letting us down. He was voted the fans player of the season in 2016 and seems a popular choice with everyone I speak to.
Jimmy would be my first choice for centre and certainly always in my 17 given his versatility.

wow the sutty bashing season comes round quick (and it seems certain posters look forward to it), i feel for him it seems just as he settling in to a position and looks like he could make it his own like full back at the end of 2016 or centre back end of last season we pick up an injury and for some reason McD has a default setting of lets move sutty again. For me when moon pulled out the obvious choice would be to bring in the next half back (lilley) or has that ship sailed.

I don't think it is Sutty bashing at all. I have said that IMO he is a valuable member of the squad because he can play well in several positions in both backs and forwards and would make the bench most weeks and play reasonable minutes. However problem is that for a Champion side like Leeds he has not shown enough class performances to claim any of the positions he has been tried in. And I agree with Gotcha he is not a 6 and has never looked like becoming one.

May be the reason he hasn’t developed is down to being constantly being moved around i would think 99 percent of the time players train in the position they are playing in week in week out come game day for sutty it must be like Russian roulette waiting to see if or were he’s playing and for this he gets a fair amount of criticism when the coach should be apportioned his share for this let’s remember jimmy replaced an injured half back not an out of form centre one who in my opinion was in good form at the end of last season and also against wire if McD sees sutty as a centre leave him there form permitting and see if he develops as he was last season in a championship winning team that he played an important part in imho

I don't see any of this as Sutty bashing. The question was a direct comparison of 2 good players and I would go with Keinhorst over Sutcliffe. Keinhorst seems very assured, the only game I have seen him make a series of errors in was after his hand injury last year. When he plays he is consistently one of the hardest working individuals on the field, whether with the ball or without. Even down to his defensive work that might not be a tackle, but applying pressure. He does seem to read the game very well too, an intelligent player who has been vastly under rated in my opinion.

Sutcliffe hasn't been given a fair run of things, but he also hasn't commanded anything either. He seems to go missing and drift in and out of games, almost lazily. I think his talent is far better than people are acknowledging, but his consistency and effort leaves him trailing Jimmy.

In the end its up to players to grab their chances. Whilst its hard for someone like Sutcliffe when he's moved around a lot, in the end he has to try to make himself undroppable regardless of where he's played. The reality is that for all of Keinhorst's strengths - good rugby game and generally solid - if there were a Watkins-esque left centre option he'd never get a look in there.

Perhaps McDermott is trying to turn Sutcliffe into an Ablett replacement who can do a job in a number of positions?

Sounds plausible. And perhaps not a bad decision either if so.

Apparently he's booked in for the plastic surgery as soon as he returns from Aus.

Keinhorst, he'll not make a SL player so long as I've got a..... oh

well he hasn't done so bad up to now

I think it’s time to let Sutcliffe grow into the fine centre he’s shown glimpses of becoming. Use Jimmy as a wide running 2nd row, although this would be more preferable if we had a full strength pack

Personally would have both in 17 as much as possible and imo best way to do this is keep Sutcliffe at centre and use keinhorst as a second rower, with JJB, Ablett and Delaney all nearing the end of their career possible as soon as end of this season if we mold keinhorst into a fine second rower which he has all the qualities to do so, he could easily be that Carl Ablett type player who can switch between second row and centre for at least another 5 years, and keep Sutcliffe at centre and let him make it his own.

That makes a lot of sense. What are you doing on here?

How short peoples memories are. Whilst Sutty hasn't started the season in the manner he ended last year, this "Jimmy should play instead of" nonsense is just that. Jimmy had a great game against KR, no disputing that, but that is one game. Sutty performed very well for the back end of last season and appears to have found his position. He was awful against KR but was playing out of position, called in at the last minute and had to put up with a forward pack (bar Stevie) intent on making a world record for knock ons. Cooper Cronk would have struggled. Sutty has some development in him but will be a very good centre.

Bit harsh to say it's just one game as he was rightly Fans player of the year in 2016 and was going as good if not better at the start of the year as Sutcliffe did at the end.

Criticism of Sutcliffe in the thread is harsh. I think Keinhorst is the better centre and would be my preferred choice but that doesn't mean Sutcliffe isn't good there also. Preferring one player to another doesn't mean you don't still rate the latter.

And there lies the ills of modern society, has to be one thing or the extreme other, left or right; good or bad...for another time maybe.